Which 6 SF parks are getting new rides.
I don't even know who you are. You're just a screen name to me. I contradict things you say when you're blatantly incorrect, or when I feel you're whining makes coaster-enthusiasts on a whole look bad. I would do that to anyone I disagree with, though. You kinda became a target for me when you called me an asinine retard.
...first of all, that's because you are... second, I am not whining. You are proably the ONLY person out there on these boards that seems to have a justficiation for everything I say (or anyone else who's homepark is SFDL & has been there many many more times than you) about Darien Lake being a neglected park.
...I know a few employees who've worked there in the past, many others who attend the park yearly... both casually & with a season pass. They all agree, the park is a disgrace now. They've been letting it fall to hell.
The lake is always filled with algae, they don't play music anywhere in the park unlike MOST other parks I've been to (stopped playing Superman music after the first year), a lot of their rides are in dire need of paint jobs & lightbulb replacements, and the bathrooms are just plain ungodly awful.
The only credit I'll give the park is that it's great on its choices of flowers, annuals & plants for landscaping, but that's it.
But you're argument is they've ripped out more then they've added, and that's just blatantly incorrect.Removals- Crazy Quilt, Nightmare, Cascade Canyon, and Riptide Falls.
Additions- Superman, Twister, Slingshot, Shipwreck Falls, Batman Stunt Show, in addition to substantial investment in aesthetic and facility improvements.
Oh, don't forget they added the wonderful TurboBungee too... but you know what? Who f*cking cares?... at LEAST 90% of the guests that enter the gates of Darien Lake will not ride Slingshot nor TurboBungee. It's an upcharge attraction that cost $20.00 per person to ride. It's a waste except for that small niche who will pay to ride it. Those don't count because those kinds of attractions do not bring in guests. They had an excellent waterpark with great capacity. They had an additional 6 slides in the rear of the "rainbow" mountain as well as the 4 that were a part of the Cascade Canyon. That's a total of 10 slides. The waterpark was always crazy with people. In the summer of 2003, it was a joke. People who would normally spend half their day there, probably lasted maybe 20 minutes or so. There was no reason to remove any of those slides, especially Cascade Canyon when Six Flags could have spent the money to repair the structure.
Why do you think they would remove older attractions the year they decide to brand the park? It's simple-- the older attractions, such as the waterslides and the Nightmare, were probably considered too-low capacity for a year when they were anticipating a large surge of attendance. Could you imagine how long the line for Nightmare would be in 1999? Makes sense to me.And if they ever decide to expand the water park, you'll start whining because they're not giving you a new coaster.
They removed attractions because they don't know how to manage space. They're using the same old land when they could be using new territory that they currently own & don't use. I could name 5 places... currently well within the park boundries without sacraficing anything!
The Nightmare would be doing just fine. It's a wildmouse coaster, those coasters have always had low capacity. It's a known issue, and it's nothing to cry about.
The whole opposite side of "rainbow moutain" was removed which contained 6 great slides. Once those were gone, it severely limited the appeal of the waterpark. Once Cascade Canyon was removed to make way for Shipwreck Falls, the waterpark became a joke. Those 10 slides kept the crowds in control. You had a large number of guests enjoying the waterpark while the rest were off in the dry rides.
Today, the waterpark sees a decent crowd, but the lines for the tube slide are upwards of 20+ minutes on hot days... and the average person stays not even half the time they used to because there's NOTHING to do anymore. The pool gets boring, the slides are a long wait & the lagoon is cold. It was a big mistake by Six Flags to do this without immediately replacing it with other water attractions.
And if they ever decide to expand the water park, you'll start whining because they're not giving you a new coaster.[/quote]I dont think so, numbnuts... the waterpark expansion has been talked about time & time again. I, as well as many other SFDL fans on this site (which obviously ain't you), would be estatic with waterpark additions. Our waterpark is probably the worst out of the entire chain... no lie.
Why would you purposely spell the company's name incorrect? It makes you look ignorant and uninformed. It's spelled "Premier." There never was an "e" on the end.I can because you keep making a big deal out of it. You've corrected me in at least 3 other threads. Others spell it that way, it's habit, and this is not a grammar or spelling forum.
Your numbers confirm exactly what I said. Attendance will naturally fluctuate from year-to-year due to a variety of circumstances. They're always close to the 1.5m range, as they always have been and probably always will be. I mean, they added Shipwreck Falls in 2002 but still saw a 7% decrease in attendance from 2001. And like I said, a new ride will certainly help bring attendance back over the 1.5m mark, but it won't ever drop drastically below that mark because they have good resources on site (campground, hotel, amphitheater) to keep people coming back.Sure, there's cheaper places to go camping all over New York State. But how many of them have a theme park attached to them? How many of them have a theme park and water park attached to them? How many of them have a theme park, water park, and concert amphitheater (with quality, popular shows) attached to them?
Fluxuate? What the hell are you talking about? The numbers have gone DOWN since 1999... there's no fluxuation, that's just a general decline! I don't know WTF you're looking at, but common sense shows you right there in Black & White that the attendance is just consistantly dropping because Six Flags is not making an effort to keep this a resort destination, as they claim to be (yes, they do... it's on their broschure, it's on their homepage)... They aren't going to attract many more people outside the regional area, and the general public aren't stupid. If they see the park has nothing new, they'll go somewhere else. You pay a lot of money to stay a night or two in the hotel... you really think people are going to be making many return trips when they've offered basically the same thing since 1999? I don't think so.
The ampitheater is completely seperate from the park, BTW. Most of the time sold out on shows, and has little effect on the actual revenue/attendance of the park.Also... SFDL's direct competitor is Paramount Canada's Wonderland. It's advertised on Buffalo & Rochester radio & television stations, just as Six Flags Darien Lake is advertised on Toronto & Hamilton radio & television station. Darien Lake's PR Rep has been quoted in saying their direct competition is indeed Wonderland, not Seabreeze of Rochester, and not Martin's Fantasy Island.
You'd think with as large a park as Wonderland, which for the last ohhhhh... maybe 10+ years, they have added at least ONE major new ride year in & year out to become one of the top seasonal parks in the country... even after the SARS scare (21. Paramount Canada's Wonderland - 2.62 million - down 7%). That's one hell of an accomplishment.
The question is why Six Flags doesn't see this, and bother to even ATTEMPT to have Darien Lake compete against Canada's Wonderland. They're losing out year after year, because the regional area here hears that Wonderland got the Sledge Hammer, that wonderland got the Psyclone, that wonderland is getting a flying coaster plastered all over radio, TV, & print... what's Darien Lake got to offer? An on-site hotel & 5 world-class coasters. That's their 2003 push, and that's just pathetic.*** Edited 1/29/2004 10:34:39 PM UTC by DawgByte II***
BATWING FAN SFA said:
We've got plenty of competition from Hershey.PKD & BGW so don't go around saying there's no competition for SFA when in fact there is.
When did I say SFA didn't have any competition? Don't put words in my mouth.
When I mention the investments that Premiere [sic] parks made from 93 to 98 such as Python,Roar & Mind eraser I'm not refeering to those as SFI investments so therefore they don't exactly count...those rides were planned & built at a time when Premier parks had no interest in Six flags at all,it was just by luck that they bought the chain from Time warner after it was sold...
What, exactly, is your argument here? Premier then is the same company as Premier now (please note that the word "Premier" has one "e" unlike others in this thread). The strategy that Premier had for SFA is the same strategy they have now. The purchase of Six Flags had zero effect on SFA except that it got to take on the Six Flags name. The plan all along was to add attractions consecutively to raise the attendance. And then, when attendance got to the point they wanted it, the influx of new attractions every year ceased. The purchase of Six Flags didn't alter that plan one bit.
Since 99 the only major rides added to SFA along with the SF name were JJ,Two face & great chase along with one or two flats for their debut year,following that we got S:ROS & Chaos in 2000,then in 01 Batwing was added
Yeah, what's five coasters, a water ride, and a bunch of flat rides? Since you like to compare SFA to SFGAm and whine about how much more SFGAm apparently gets, please note that SFA has received the *same* number of new coasters as SFGAm. Then you have your new water ride, skycoaster, and flats on top of that. And SFA draws in *half* as many people as SFGAm. So excuse me for asking, but what the hell are you talking about?
After 01 came SFI's money problems & that's when things went downhill for a majority of the new parks they just re-branded...due to budget cutbacks on cap ex most proposed ride additions for these parks have been on hold or cancelled alltogether.
Premier's financial problems have always been there; it just caught up to them in 2001 because they purchased nearly fifteen coasters in '01, and an unheard-of 20 in 2000. Do you really think that, chain-wide, it was possible to see attendance increases over two years big enough to support thirty roller coasters? Premier's free-for-all spending is what caused their financial trouble. And now they're stuck in it. SFA has gotten a hell of a lot more additions than PKD and BGW (for instance) in the past few years. I just don't understand your nonsensical complaints.
Attendance can increase with a new ride being added...however it will drop sharply if no new rides are added on a regular basis
Wrong. Look at the Cedar Fair parks, in particular Worlds of Fun and Valleyfair. Those parks continually have strong attendance in years with no new rides. In the past ten years, Valleyfair has received just three new coasters (and one was a simple wild mouse). That park continually has strong attendance, and is up year after year. Worlds of Fun is in a similar situation. Additionally, attendance can go up with a new attraction, but it does not necessarily. If I were Six Flags, and I thought SFA had reached its limit, I would stop adding to it to (although, as I demonstrated, they've hardly skimped on new additions).
,remeber what happened at SFGRADV when no new ride was added in 02?
Remember what happened at every single SF park that added a new coaster this year? New rides are not the answer. Customer service and strong operations to earn repeat customers is.
Jeremy: While I have never been to the DC area, I am familiar with the fact that nobody really lives there (well, "nobody" is an exaggeration, but you know what I mean). I was simply quoting the "Population of the 100 Largest Urban Places" table from the US Census Bureau. There are a whole lot of ways to determine population of areas; indeed, they list the District of Columbia and Baltimore separately. However, adding the population of DC (606,900) and Baltimore (736,014) still falls far short of the population of Chicago (2,783,726), for instance.
Regardless, you bring up some good points. SFA is in a big market. However, that big market is also shared by at least three, and easily more major amusement parks in direct competition. The Chicago market belongs to SFGAm only. None of the "competitors" (ie Dorney) make the slightest dent in SFGAdv's NYC/Philly market. Even SFMM, which clearly has some major competition, (a) does far better than SFA, and (b) has an far larger market to share (especially when you figure tourism dollars pouring in). Would you disagree with what I said above, and claim that SFA could be the size of SFGAm?
SFoT's status is interesting. It's always been basically favored because its the original park. It also has zero competition. Dallas and Ft. Worth together are still 1,500,000 (larger than Baltimore & DC) but I understand your point. The fact remains, however, that SFoT is a "big four" park because it draws the attendance of one. People flock to that park for one reason or another, and it's in the "big four" because of it. I would make the argument, though, that I don't think SFoT gets *quite* as many toys as the other three do. That may be completely incorrect, I don't know, but at 1,000,000 more people/year through the gates than SFA, it's obvious why they get all the goods.
But again, you do make some good points. Unless I'm reading you incorrectly, however, I don't think you're particularly disappointed in SFA's additions. Nor do I think you're of the belief that SFA should - or could - be one of the big players. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
-Nate
mOOSH - who thinks the bickering in this thread is getting really old and thought it was time for some laughter.
What time do they go to bed at Neverland Ranch?
When the big hand touches the little hand!
Who's there?
Little Boy Blue.
Little Boy Blue who?
Michael Jackson
Don't let your son go down on me.
That one might have crossed the line.
He's off to Tampa with the kids. *** Edited 1/29/2004 11:59:57 PM UTC by Zingo!***
mOOSH [was out of MJ jokes]
They both ride three year olds.
---------------
And moosh delivers another flamewar destroyer.
...first of all, that's because you are... second, I am not whining. You are pro ably [sic] the ONLY person out there on these boards that seems to have a justficiation [sic] for everything I say (or anyone else who's home park is SFDL & has been there many many more times than you) about Darien Lake being a neglected park.
1) You don't know who I am.
2) I used to live in Williamsville, NY.
3) You have no idea how many times I've been to Six Flags Darien Lake.
...I know a few employees who've worked there in the past, many others who attend the park yearly... both casually & with a season pass. They all agree, the park is a disgrace now. They've been letting it fall to hell.
[sarcasm]Wow, that's an accurate way to judge how the general public thinks about and responds to Six Flags Darien Lake! "My friends all think Darien Lake has gone to hell! It must be true!" [/sarcasm]
The lake is always filled with algae, they don't play music anywhere in the park unlike MOST other parks I've been to (stopped playing Superman music after the first year), a lot of their rides are in dire need of paint jobs & lightbulb replacements, and the bathrooms are just plain ungodly awful.
Cry me a river... cry me a river...
I'll disagree and say I think Darien Lake does a good job maintaining their facilities.
The only credit I'll give the park is that it's great on its choices of flowers, annuals & plants for landscaping, but that's it.
Oh, so you think the only thing they do well is plant nice flowers? Why do you spend money on a season pass if you think they should only receive credit for planting nice flowers?
Oh, don't forget they added the wonderful TurboBungee too... but you know what? Who f*cking cares?... at LEAST 90% of the guests that enter the gates of Darien Lake will not ride Slingshot nor TurboBungee.
You know, that's funny. Everytime I go there during the busy season the Skycoaster is booked solid, and I've seen the Slingshot stay open PAST closing time because it's so busy. And I've never seen Turbo Bungy sitting idle waiting for bouncers.
Let's use Skycoaster for an example of how well these rides do at Darien Lake. If it costs $40/single, $50/double, and $60/triple, then we'll use $50 as the mean. If they do 12 rides per hour (5 minute cycle time), that's 12*$50= $600/hour* 11-hour day= $6600 in revenue on an average summer operating day. So I'm sure the PARK cares, even if you don't.
They removed attractions because they don't know how to manage space. They're using the same old land when they could be using new territory that they currently own & don't use. I could name 5 places... currently well within the park boundries [sic] without sacraficing [sic] anything! The Nightmare would be doing just fine. It's a wildmouse [sic] coaster, those coasters have always had low capacity. It's a known issue, and it's nothing to cry about.
Are you KIDDING me? Sure, Darien Lake has room to expand. But they were DAMN smart to remove such a low-capacity MAJOR attraction when they decided to brand the park-- the year they hosted 1.7m guests. The Nightmare would NOT be doing "just fine." First of all, it's not a Wild Mouse. It's a Schwarzkopf Jet Star 1. And it has HALF the capacity of a typical Wild Mouse. The Nightmare dispatched a car roughly once every 60 seconds, for a total hourly capacity of 240 pph (4 people * 60 minutes in hour). However, the Wild Mouse at Canada's Wonderland dispatches a car roughly once every 30 seconds, so you essentially have double the capacity of the Nightmare (8 people * 60 minutes in an hour= 480 pph).
Now let's say that Darien Lake hosts 20,000 guests on a good, busy, sunny Saturday in the summer. It would only take 960 of those people to queue for Nightmare in order to produce a FOUR HOUR LINE for that attraction, assuming that EVERY car goes out with 4 people and the ride doesn't go down for maintenance. And what are guests doing when they're waiting in line? Well, let me tell you when they're NOT doing- a) spending money b) having a good time c) thinking about upgrading to a season pass. I think it was OBVIOUS why they decided to remove that ride.
I dont [sic] think so, numbnuts... the waterpark expansion has been talked about time & time again. I, as well as many other SFDL fans on this site (which obviously ain't you), would be estatic [sic] with waterpark additions. Our waterpark is probably the worst out of the entire chain... no lie.
I think Darien Lake is a wonderful park. I think it's a really good entertainment value. I support the park. You, however, in this post alone, accused the park of falling to "hell," said the only credit the park deserves is planting pretty flowers, and complained about numerous other things. Who is the true fan here? It's certainly not you...
And just what does "numbnuts" mean, anyway? How do you even know I'm a man?
I can because you keep making a big deal out of it. You've corrected me in at least 3 other threads. Others spell it that way, it's habit, and this is not a grammar or spelling forum.
"Everyone else is doing it, so why can't I?"
And you know what? Everyone else is incorrect. It's spelled "Premier." There's never been an "e" attached to the end. Educated people tend to think that a person's ability to effectively demonstrate written communication skills is a direct reflection of their intelligence. I tend to agree, but I think someone can have trouble with written expression but still possess an admirable degree of intelligence... but I don't think that's true in your case.
And no, this isn't a spelling or grammar forum, but the Coasterbuzz Terms of Service requires registered users to respect the English language.
Fluxuate [sic]? What the hell are you talking about? The numbers have gone DOWN since 1999... there's no fluxuation [sic], that's just a general decline! I don't know WTF you're looking at, but common sense shows you right there in Black & White that the attendance is just consistantly [sic] dropping because Six Flags is not making an effort to keep this a resort destination, as they claim to be (yes, they do... it's on their broschure [sic], it's on their homepage)...
Of course the numbers are going to show a decline from 1999. The park was branded in 1999, and Six Flags aggressively markets their "new" parks when they're branded. All of the parks have seen huge increases (some more than others) during the season they're branded. But attendance is down across the board. Industry attendance is down on a whole. And I'm not suggesting Darien Lake should never add a new ride. All parks need to eventually add new attractions. I'm suggesting that Darien Lake has other advantages on their property that continue to bring people into the park, even if the they don't add a new ride. These circumstances allow Darien Lake to go longer without a new ride and still maintain a respectable attendance, which is right around the 1.5m mark. Attendance will go back over 1.5m when they add a new ride, and it'll fall back near 1.5m when they don't.
I would be quite happy if Darien Lake decided to build another high-profile attraction. I mean, a quality, high-profile attraction can only do well for the park. Plus, I like riding! But I think logically, and I understand the industry. I don't get upset when Darien Lake doesn't announce anything new. Enthusiasts can never seem to think logically. They only think about "RIDES RIDES RIDES!!!!! "I WANT MORE NEW RIDES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" -Coaster Tool
It's kind of like the criticism that men only "think with their dicks." It's the same way with Coaster Tools. They think largely the same way.
They aren't going to attract many more people outside the regional area, and the general public aren't stupid. If they see the park has nothing new, they'll go somewhere else. You pay a lot of money to stay a night or two in the hotel... you really think people are going to be making many return trips when they've offered basically the same thing since 1999? I don't think so.
And Six Flags will respond accordingly if the public makes the decision not to support Darien Lake.
The ampitheater [sic] is completely seperate [sic] from the park, BTW. Most of the time sold out on shows, and has little effect on the actual revenue/attendance of the park.
Oh yeah, and you really believe that Darien Lake doesn't get a cut of every concert ticket sold? And plus, it's basically free marketing for the park when people come to the facility just to see the show. I'm sure people come for the show, see the rides, and are intrigued enough to come back and visit the theme park. Superman makes a pretty good billboard for the park...
Also... SFDL's direct competitor is Paramount Canada's Wonderland. It's advertised on Buffalo & Rochester radio & television stations, just as Six Flags Darien Lake is advertised on Toronto & Hamilton radio & television station. Darien Lake's PR Rep has been quoted in saying their direct competition is indeed Wonderland, not Seabreeze of Rochester, and not Martin's Fantasy Island.
[sarcasm] Wow, that's a mind-blowing deduction. Thanks for pointing that out. [/sarcasm]
You'd think with as large a park as Wonderland, which for the last ohhhhh... maybe 10+ years, they have added at least ONE major new ride year in & year out to become one of the top seasonal parks in the country... even after the SARS scare (21. Paramount Canada's Wonderland - 2.62 million - down 7%). That's one hell of an accomplishment.
1) PCW is a much larger park.
2) PCW is much CLOSER to a much LARGER market than Darien Lake is. Approx. 4.6 million people live in Toronto (source: City of Toronto's website), and that doesn't include other sizable cities in the area (Barrie, etc.). Not even 300,000 people live in Buffalo, and only 934,000 people live in Erie County (source: City of Buffalo's website).
The question is why Six Flags doesn't see this, and bother to even ATTEMPT to have Darien Lake compete against Canada's Wonderland. They're losing out year after year, because the regional area here hears that Wonderland got the Sledge Hammer, that wonderland got the Psyclone, that wonderland is getting a flying coaster plastered all over radio, TV, & print... what's Darien Lake got to offer? An on-site hotel & 5 world-class coasters. That's their 2003 push, and that's just pathetic.
While I'm sure Darien Lake loses business to PCW, you have to see the ads Six Flags runs in Toronto. I'm sure the converse is true as well.
The only thing pathetic here is how you claim to be a fan.
-Blast *** Edited 1/30/2004 12:34:11 AM UTC by VolcanoTBC***
0-1, 0-2, 0-3, 0-4, 0-5, 0-6, 0-7....
mOOSH [pouring more water on the flames]
And I'd like to point out there's nothing more than intense debate going on in this thread. Well, Dawg called me "numbnuts," but nobody really knows what that means. Is that a flame?
Isn't this a debate forum?
-Blast
coasterdude318 said:
coasterguts said:
There is no reason why SFA can't be as big as the big four. Washington, D.C. is ranked 7th largest in the country and continuing to grow.You're wrong. According to the US Census Bureau, Washington DC ranks 19th in population. The total population of the District of Columbia is 572,000. That's a fifth the size of Chicago.
Uh dude, there are way more than 572,000 people in the Washington, DC Area . According to AC Nielsen there are 2,224,070 viewers in the Washington, D.C area. Add another 1,083,030 mil viewers from Baltimore. If you add those numbers together you get 3,307,100 viewers. That's enough viewers to place it 4th just behind Chicago and ahead of San Francisco, Dallas, Philadelphia and Boston. You can't fiqure the population just on the U.S. Census figure for Washington, D.C. you have to factor in the surrounding counties for several hundred miles away.
And you know what? Everyone else is incorrect. It's spelled "Premier." There's never been an "e" attached to the end. Educated people tend to think that a person's ability to effectively demonstrate written communication skills is a direct reflection of their intelligence. I tend to agree, but I think someone can have trouble with written expression but still possess an admirable degree of intelligence... but I don't think that's true in your case.And no, this isn't a spelling or grammar forum, but the Coasterbuzz Terms of Service requires registered users to make an attempt to use correct spelling and grammar.
Ohhh yea, the TOS. I guess I'm REQURED to put the "E" at the end of Premiere whenever I spell it. I guess it seems to spark a little irk in you, so Premiere Premiere Premiere! Damn, I supposed if I spelled Schwartzkauph wrong (which I obviously did, because I don't use a dictionary when spelling out company names... or anything for that matter). You say potato, I say & spell potatoe. Maybe I should start typing in L33T 5p3@k for your pleasure.
You just won't give up on this, will you?
No matter what I say, you have some sort of rebuttal for it...
For your information VTBC, I'm not a freakin hippocrite, I never dissed their flowers & landscaping. In fact, I've taken some great shots of SFDL & posted it around various sites for the public to see (Coasterbuzz included)... but that's the only redeeming value of that park.
How many amusement parks have complete dead ends to their mid-ways? Well... this is one of them that has two. One of them leads to Superman and then just ends.
I'm not going to waste my time quoting you over & over & over ad nausea... I'm assuming you got a lot of time on your hands because you keep quoting every little thing I say (most likely including this), and finding some kind of rebuttal for it...
...but you're saying that PCW isn't even in the same LEAGUE as SFDL is. Fact is, a lot of Canadians come over the border, and with the sinking American dollar in the past year, it's only enticing more Canadians to take their buck to America. SFDL is advertised there as a much better deal than we get here, with more BOGO's, more 1/2 off, and more push than Wonderland sometimes. It doesn't matter if SFDL is in a city of 300,000 (oh, I'm sorry... I estimated too high... 299,999), it still uses the Toronto & Southern Ontario population as part of its target market.... along with areas as far south as Erie PA & Syracuse, NY. Why? It's the closest Six Flags in town, so they do have a very large target audience.
You've really got to take your PMS, dude/dude-ette... because you can't think of anything NEW to say except find wrong on what I said in the previous post, and the rattle on & on until you've got a case of carpeltunnel syndrome.
colincsl said:
YES! SFDL isn't getting anything...again. It will have been 6 years at the earliest that Darien Lake has gotten a roller coaster(Superman in 1999).
Yeah, same with Astroworld (which actually lost one in that time instead, heh). But at least SF finally agreed to let 'em paint three large badly rusting coasters for 2004, so I'm content about their meager plans.
Metro area population figures from 2000.
Let the arguing continue.
-----------------
What do you call a Philly Eagle with a championship ring?
A theif.
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