What are they (HW/SS) up to now? (Timberliners on Voyage)

Voyage is easily the best woodie I've ever ridden. It was a little bit on the rough side because of the quick transitions and really tight turns. So yes, hopefully these trains will deliver as they say they are capable of doing.

Fun said:

What is it with people using the canned response of "read the link"?

It was an appropriate response.

Fun said:

But investing in a brand new, un-proven design is risky. Who's to say it wouldn't bring up some other problems?

Not an unreasonable question. But the design has been tested, thoroughly, and although the testing occurred on Raven, I'm sure the number-crunchers at TGG were very satisfied with the results (they even said so). And those same TGG guys were the ones who built Voyage, and were dissatisfied at the time that available coaster trains weren't able to navigate the trackage as well as they would have liked....hence, the Timberliners were born.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2009/nov/09/new-trains-should-make-award-winning-coaster-feel-/

Total cost of the 2 new trains is $540,000.

This is great news! Definitely my favorite 2010 announcement so far (but of course, that was to be expected from me, right? :))

With single-bench cars and 28 riders/train, I wonder if these trains will be the longest on a wooden coaster.

Also, those of you with concerns over the park just purchasing two trains...The Voyage hardly ever runs all three of its trains at the same time, anyway. Except for a few Saturdays in the months of July and August, the coaster rarely uses its third train.

The new release is here in the news section, in case you haven't seen it elsewhere.

That above press release states they are getting rid of their old trains, which means they must have a lot of faith in the new trains. The new trains do look like a lot of fun. I wonder though if the cost for maintaining the trains are going to increase, but could be offset by reduced track maintenance.

Interesting news - my cell phone was going crazy with text messages this afternoon as "the word" spread regarding this news.

Jury will be out until I ride the things. Outside of Morgan trains, which I totally despise, I can deal with most types of trains - I had a hell of a time on Prowler this summer (GCIs best, by far) so that proved I can really enjoy a ride with MF trains, which aren't really my favorite. My only concern is whether the type of intensity I desire (and enjoy in the Voyage) comes from the PTC trains and how much that aspect of the ride experience will be changed with the new trains. Time will tell. I expect it will be just fine.

-m

They want it to be smoother. Was it ever rough?

I have heard many people say that the Voyage is the roughest coaster they have ever been on. And at times it is really intense and the slightest bump can be perceived as super rough.

They want it to be more accommodating. Were lots of people being turned away?

More accommodating is a step ahead. Always.

They want it to be more comfortable. Were guests commenting that it wasn't?

I would imagine they were. The general public is not used to riding the way we do.

They want it to go faster. Wasn't it fast enough already?

I just see this as an added bonus.

I suggest taking off your gravy colored glasses and look at it from a general public point of view and it really makes sense.

Gravy colored glasses? Dream on. I could care less what ACE thinks. I'm looking at this from the financial point of view. Moosh's link that pins down the price is a great piece of info so that these "improvements" could be quantified in dollars in cents.

Without knowing how much is spent annually on maintenance on the Voyage, and how much money Gravity Group claims they can save, I don't have a good understanding of the ROI. But my whole bone of contention here is that if these trains don't save or generate $540,000 for Holiday World, then there really is no point to this.

At this point I have to assume that the world's best wooden coaster may not be the easiest to maintain- which is what my original question was all along- what is broken?

Fun said:
don't have a good understanding of the ROI. But my whole bone of contention here is that if these trains don't save or generate $540,000 for Holiday World, then there really is no point to this.

At this point I have to assume that the world's best wooden coaster may not be the easiest to maintain- which is what my original question was all along- what is broken?

Holiday World, the first park to offer free pop, still has free parking, upgraded from 1 G train to 2 PTC trains on one coaster and added a 2nd PTC train to another coaster. I think they know what they are doing :)

Some of the stuff Holiday World does may not seem a quick "ROI" in a corporate/big park mindset. But they know what they are doing. Look at their numbers and guest satisfaction. Plus, they are patient.

No, it's not broken, but things can always be improved.

I think this will be a bigger improvement than raising the headrests, adding soundtracks and fire, and removing 2 seats.

Fun said:
Without knowing how much is spent annually on maintenance on the Voyage, and how much money Gravity Group claims they can save, I don't have a good understanding of the ROI. But my whole bone of contention here is that if these trains don't save or generate $540,000 for Holiday World, then there really is no point to this.

At this point I have to assume that the world's best wooden coaster may not be the easiest to maintain- which is what my original question was all along- what is broken?

I think we have to look at the costs in a few areas: maintenance costs of the trains themselves (supposedly TL's are easier to maintain than PTCs, requiring less time, and time of course translates into cost savings), and of course track maintenance. I don't think HW expects to see half a million in cost savings in one season, but across 5 or 10 seasons? I think that might be quite realistic. Every year the park has done offseason track work on the ride to take care of problem areas that developed over that season, and if the amount of offseason work was diminished by the new trains that exert less forces on the track, over time this should save costs. An aggressive ride such as the Voyage places tremendous strain on the track - IMO it may very well define the limits of forces on a traditional wooden coaster trackbed, so it isn't exactly rocket surgery or brain science that anything that reduces maintenance costs is a plus.

We also need to take a look at how often the coaster may or may not have opened late due to morning maintenance work carrying over into operating hours - in the realm of customer satisfaction it's best, of course, to make sure your prime rides are fully operational when your guests enter the gates - and while this may not be as easily quantified into cost savings as would, say, maintenance costs, I think it's also part of the overall equation and keeps the guests happy. And if the loading throughput is increased due to a better restraint system, that means less waits in the queue for the guests on one of those sardine packed Saturdays, and that also equates to better customer satisfaction.

-m

a_hoffman50 said:
-I have heard many people say that the Voyage is the roughest coaster they have ever been on. And at times it is really intense and the slightest bump can be perceived as super rough.

-More accommodating is a step ahead. Always.

-I would imagine they were. The general public is not used to riding the way we do.

I've always suspected (based on nothing but my own experiences and line of thought) that The Voyage was pushing (if not slightly surpassing) what might be considered "accecptable" by the GP. I don't doubt that making it more rideable was part of the decision process.

CoasterDemon said:
I think this will be a bigger improvement than raising the headrests, adding soundtracks and fire, and removing 2 seats.

Two things:

1. Every coaster is better with a soundtrack.

2. Fire. Heh heh. Fire. Fire! Heh heh heh...

^The Voyage has a soundtrack already! It's screams, woahs, laughs and screeches, whooshes and slamming noises. And it's pretty awesome! I love the sounds coasters make. One of my favorites is the rolling rumble of a train racing through and old school Intamin/Anton box-beam loop.

Fire, well... that happens on some old PTC trains, from time to time (for anyone who's ever been an employee on one, you know what I'm talking about).

The first comment on this news article is from someone in the GP...

CoasterDemon said:
Holiday World, the first park to offer free pop, still has free parking, upgraded from 1 G train to 2 PTC trains on one coaster and added a 2nd PTC train to another coaster.

-It's not free pop, you just pay for it with your admission ticket.
-Ditto for the parking (Not that there is a direct cost associated with parking a car, but I guess we are so used to having to pay for the convenience)
-A second train was train was undoubtedly needed to keep the line moving, and get people back on the midway spending money.

One of Holiday World's greatest strengths is that they consistently make people think the park doesn't care about money. They have mastered the art of the shell game and their customers don't bother looking at what they are really spending because they think it's a good value (not that any of that is a bad thing- I just think it's naive to think they do things without regard for the bottom line).

DaveStroem said:
I wonder what other rides may be getting these in the next few years?

Could these help out KI's problem child or even Mean Streak?

Will they only be used on GG coasters or will the design & manufacture of trains play a larger roll in GG future then new coasters?

Timberliners are available to all wooden coasters.

rollergator said:
^Dave, I think it might work out similar to GCI and the MFlyers. First couple of years, they may only be able to keep up with the demand necessitated by new and existing TGG creations...then their "buillding capacity" may improve to the point where they'd consider installing Timberliners on others' designs.

I could always be wrong....

Oh, and my vote for "what ride SHOULD get the second set of Timberliners"....Hades! ;)

Timberliners are available to *ALMOST ALL* wood coasters, AS FAST AS THEY CAN BUILD EM!. A few people I know sat in the prototype back in August mainly for a sizing and impression of them type thing.

The trains will fit much larger people than the MF trains both in comfort and lapbar. *Its kinda like Phantoms revenge* Two people my size will not touch shoulders whereas in a PTC were hanging out the sides. The padding is thick, All the way around and the sides and backs are at shoulder height and not half way up your rib cage like a PTC.

Some things that are kinda still top secret but the Cat's outta the bag, Maintainence ont he trains is also set to be easy, The seats fold up for access. There is also shock absorbers in the seating.

The cars can run backward without any problem but more secreative is the seats can be turned to FACE EACH OTHER!. Unlike MF trains which fully articulate. TL's also steer much like a B&M If you could make track twist fast enough the car in front of you could be upside down and you could be right side up in a split second. The cars can loop, corkscrew. Be launched You name it.

Welcome to the future of Wood coasters! I suspect the Gravity Kraft booth to be swamped both clients and enthusiast at IAAPA and little sleep for our friends at TGG! :)

Congrats guys!

Chuck

RideMan said:
The interesting thing about this is that for the moment at least, they are only doing two trains. But one of the many cool things about the Timberliners is that I'm fairly certain that GravityKraft is opposed to using seat belts. So if the new trains are built wide open as indicated and do not have safety belts (since the lap bar design is built with the Class 5 requirements of the ASTM design standard in mind) the loading process with the Timberliners should be significantly shorter than the process with the PTCs. Which means that with the two Timberliners in place, the ride might be more realistically capable of sustained 3-train operation than it now is with the PTCs.

But hey, they have to walk before they can run. I *predict* that we will be able to figure out exactly how effective the new trains are after the first couple of years. If successful, Voyage might get a third one. If really successful, The Legend might get a set. And if *not* terribly successful, the Voyage will be running PTCs by next August.

The bottom line is, Holiday World doesn't mess around.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

TGG didn't want seatbelts, They increase load, unload and maintainence a ton. Are a rider controlled restraint (Meaning you could remove em during ride and therefore kinda redundant.

Paula made a post on mentioning upcoming announcements on Facebook and I replied about three days ago that I thought Legend would get them. Actually Legend is more problematic for its size than Voyage but I guess Will wanted to just go ALL OUT!

I honestly see this as a revolution for wood coasters, While MF's are capable of doing many of the things the TL's are. The company's been a little reserved on what it will design IMHO.

I can tell you this, Its now possible for parks with problematic coasters to buy a train that will reduce their track maintainence significantly!!!!!!

Chuck, been waiting on this announcement for months!

Its going to change the ride a lot. It's yet to be seen the possitives and negatives. You will loose the whip effect of sitting in the second row of the PTC, However the added speed could significantly increase forces in other parts of the ride (Like every hill top sans the first drop)

I expect Voyages best lap to be shattered on its first test run. Im sure Rideman has Drop to stop times somewhere. Pretty much ever rattle and shake durring the entire ride is going to be ELIMINATED! Every one of those is a LOSS IN SPEED, Many of us remember rides where wheels just didn't seem to be turning but banging around on the track under the train. THAT IS GONE!. Running at its best it seemed the trains were slamming the side rail goin into a corner. THAT IS GONE.

Need to grease the rails, THAT IS GONE!.
Anyone care to guess ride time reduction? Remember its one of the top five wooden coasters in length so whats second in improvment on Raven with a quarter of a train................................... IM guessing about twenty seconds faster for Voyage.