Top Thrill 2 faces extended closure for modification

I don't think it was ever testing as if it were running full capacity on an operating day. Those first weeks of testing were likely just to dial in the launch system. After that, it wasn't testing every day or at operational volume.

When you look at photos of the Intamin trains vs. the Zamperla trains sitting on the track of TT2 the most notable difference is how the center of gravity changed because of the seats positioned higher, larger road wheels, the train frame sitting higher, etc. which I’m sure all contributed to the issues they are experiencing. Look at any on-ride video and the vibrations traveling up through the seats clearly shows, that causes stress fractures and probably what they are testing for with sensors on the silver train. The wheel bogies had to be beefed up as well which we already knew. It seems Zamperla tried to take their Lightning train that can easily handle less intense rollercoaster designs and use it for something that even Intamin had to create a new train design for.

I'm not a metallurgist or materials expert, so don't quote me as such, but steel is more likely to crack than aluminum. Aluminum is more malleable than steel.

The sensors, the way I understand it, measure stress. Compression and expansion of the metal changes the conductivity of it, so measured resistance of electricity can "detect" changes in that stress.

I would also qualify that you can't see "vibration" in any video, but you can see what appears to be lateral shifting during the launches. You could also see it on the old ride, so while we've all honed in on that, I'm not sure I'd say that's not totally unexpected. Looking at a variety of reverse POV videos from media day, with fresh eyes, I noticed that the shifting isn't lateral at all... it's more of an oscillating roll with the center of rotation being somewhere closer to the chassis. If I were to make a bet, the biggest flaw is some combination of too small a connection surface area between the center chassis rail and the perpendicular seat/wheel beams, and/or a lack of diagonal bracing between the two. If they could figure out how to get the seats lower, that might also help. Maybe the wheel bogies were inadequate, but aside from them being removed, which could have been for some other reason, I'm not really convinced either way.

My understanding is that the Dragster train chassis wasn't radically different from Millennium Force, with the exception of the mounted magnets for braking. (Obviously different seats, and lap bar posts that were bent.)

Jeff:

I'm not a metallurgist or materials expert, so don't quote me as such, but steel is more likely to crack than aluminum.

It really depends. I'm not a materials expert either, but at least in aerospace, we work with a ton of aluminum obviously (6061 being the go-to) and of course, there are tons of flavors of aluminum and steel, depending on application, so it's not quite right to assume one is easier or harder to yield or crack/fail. You need to know exactly what type of aluminum or steel it is.

Check out the fatigue limit chart between (generic) steel and aluminum. Steel can be designed to it's endurance limit in which no additional stress cycles will reduce it's strength, where aluminum will continue to weaken indefinitely. It's a big gotcha if you are designing to limits or have unknowns you didn't quite account for. If your vibe loads are higher than expected, your analysis folks improperly ran the structural analysis (it's not easy to do in dynamic systems) and you optimized your train to slim margins to reduce mass... Well, you may find yourself in a pickle!

Ductility and other properties are so dependent on the type of steel or aluminum, heat treatment, etc... So while you can get higher strength aluminum, you often sacrifice ductility for example. Then if you are doing any machining, that will also guide your material choice... Often pushing into other types of metals or other varieties of the same. Always compromises.

But overall, I'd say steel is 'easier' to design with I guess, but mass is a big penalty. Often times, you can just over design the thing enough with material that you don't worry about the endurance limit for example... We don't often have that ability when a pound can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to launch up into space, so we often work to slim margins with very elaborate analysis, testing and the like.

Again, not my specialty, but if I had to guess based on what little I do know talking with our acoustic/dynamic and structural folks over the years... They likely verified the train design with a bad analysis, which may have led to under-testing assuming they went to vibe/shock to verify the design. Then in the real world, things were worse than anticipated... Then once they start having failures of some sort, used the accells and strain gauges to verify their analysis (or really show how off they were...). In the analysis, it could have been as simple as incorrect meshes in the FEA around stress risers, incorrect loading cases, not accounting properly for thermal considerations, etc... It can be so much, honestly... Hell, it can even be that the test labs used could have incorrectly setup or under tested, but reported the appropriate levels from the control instrumentation, reporting bad data back to the engineers... Don't ask me how I know...

On a side note, the past few years I've been working with nothing but composites and adhesives for the SLS program and let me tell you, I wish I was using aluminum, steel, titanium or anything else... Composites are an entirely different beast that makes any metallic design seem like a cake walk... We are about to take our article to test (vibe and shock testing at cryogenic and elevated temperatures) with some of the most extreme vibe/shock loads ever tested... In hopes that the thing doesn't get yeeted across the test lab...

SLS... there's a jobs program if I've ever seen one.

Aluminum seems to be very much liked in consumer tech (especially by Apple). And those big ass die cast chassis pieces in Teslas apparently significantly reduce cost, and certainly reduce the number of parts. I assume the cast parts are "better" than machined, but the cost to have those presses and dies obviously doesn't translate to making three coaster trains.

Anyone else observe that rolling phenomenon? Seriously, Google any reverse POV. I can't unsee it.

Hmm, anyone else think this might be heading in the direction of Rocket Rods at Disney?

Not even close… a train with fixes has been testing for a while. Pretty sure they just ran out of time to finish the other carriers for the other trains, (plus probably wanted to test fix before finishing the rest, not to mention I presume they are made in Europe) without rushing or spending an exorbitant amount of money. If this was any other park then CP and not in the present social media world it would not be as discussed. Hell speaking of Intamin I wonder what the nightly cutting and welding of bolts on Wicked Twister would raise on current social media?

Knotts was selling Montezuma redo merch this summer and we don’t even know if it will be done next year? Or who the manufacturer is (my guess now Premier) or was originally going to do it. Hell they haven’t given us a timeline since restarting besides maybe 25, Knotts is way cagier and vague.

How long has Steel Curtain been closed now?

How long did it take Indiana Beach to open a Schwartzkof that was built to move?

How people think Intamin is the only answer are delusional, just go stand in the Maverick line and let me know how often it hiccups 15 years after being built. Also that it opened months late because the Heartline was too intense, and had to be removed.

And speaking of KBF and Intamin that it took them a year or however to fix Xcelerator.

Sharpel007:

If this was any other park then CP and not in the present social media world it would not be as discussed.

Yeah, it’s got to be frustrating for companies to be so under the microscope where any issue, like the TT2 closure Cedar Point is dealing with, is scrutinized and criticized unmercifully (and often unjustifiably), mostly by armchair engineers, enthusiasts, and even just people who like going to the park occasionally. Back in the 1900s, the few who even heard about such an issue might raise an eyebrow and then go on with their lives…and then enjoy the ride whenever it opened.

For the sake of comparison the real test this off season for new SF will be Great Adventure…

Because for the 50th we were promised restored Ferris Wheel (opened in July?) Log Flume? (Saw the flume almost done over the water?), SkyRide (map said Summer, but still boarded up) and then obviously Flash. Some people thought Flash might actually open this year.

So people who think CP was nearing SF need to have their vision checked.

Also the original TTD was such a mess the general public just expected to roll the dice if it was functioning until the last few years. And speaking of Great Adventure and Intamin, KingdaKa has been down for a few weeks, and we have yet to armchair critique that to death.

Jeff:

SLS... there's a jobs program if I've ever seen one.

No kidding.

I transitioned to this specific project some six years ago now. I was brought in just to help wrap up the final flight design stuff at the time and it should have just been a few months before shifting to other work. Supposedly.

Still going strong through a bunch of requirement changes over the years, leading to redesigns and one thing after another that gets trickled down to us from upstream. It's been wack-a-mole. And now there is data rolling in from the Artemis 1 launch that will flow down.

That being said, it's been a fun/interesting project otherwise... And there is light at the end of the tunnel for us as we purchase all of our tooling and get ready to do all our final qualification testing in the coming year or so. Fingers crossed...

Sharpel007:

the real test this off season for new SF will be Great Adventure…

My visit to Great Adventure this year was basically, "let's ride Nitro again!" I mean, other stuff was running, but putting it all together it would not have been worth the drive.

"let's ride Nitro again!"

Im waiting till next year when my pass All Parks Pass gets me in without the gouge for parking…

Oh I forgot the other big Intamin story not talked about here Formula Rossa has been SBNO since Jan, and apparently in the last few weeks all the mechanics for the launch have been pulled off the launch… so yeah KingdaKa down and Formula Rossa.

I expect mediocre management from Great Adventure. That is one reason I don't like that park. Cedar Point, on the other hand, has done a fairly decent job handling the opening of new attractions.

And with the merger, I'm sure a lot of us are hoping that situations like this are handled the Cedar Fair way, and not the Six Flags way.

Regarding the relative scrutiny being placed on CF vs. SF: I think it's fair to hold Cedar Point to the standard it has set for itself in the same way it's fair to hold Great Adventure to the standard it has set for itself.

My prediction is that Six Flags becomes more like Cedar when it comes to new rides & food buildings, and (sadly) Cedar becomes more like Six when it comes to operations. The company has telegraphed that they intend to spend less money on operating expenses, not more. I don’t see a huge spike in labor and maintenance dollars coming to a Great Adventure near you.

I think it's fair to hold Cedar Point to the standard it has set for itself in the same way it's fair to hold Great Adventure to the standard it has set for itself.

This is basically what I am saying, but the over pontificating and hang wringing over TT2 is tiring as ****, esp compared to other legacy CF parks.

Cedar becomes more like Six when it comes to operations

In my recent experiences, the CF parks have returned into their pre pandemic selfs, Dorney had pretty decent ops on a slammed day, CP most crews are rocking with a few slow downs here and there. Kings Dominion was still a mess. I think the regional job market is back in effect at each.

While TTD is certainly not alone in having difficulties this year (or in the recent past), the number of these rides having significant issues is a bit disconcerting from an engineering standpoint. Assuming TTD2 is related to the chassis wearing, we also have Steel Curtain down due to structural concerns, and a whole host of other rides that seem to have had issues. Admittedly, roller coasters are unique and very, very small from a production run standpoint, but I honestly do not remember any where near this many issues with B&M's over the years. Are these rides just getting too complicated for the amount of engineering going into them to make them run reliably?

Roller coasters are a weird and unique use case. I can't think of anything else where a machine has to move around a track at high speeds in every direction, sometimes launched with linear motors, other times pushed off a high hill. And you're right, there are so few companies that do this work.

Having worked as a mechanical engineer for 17 years, one of the dirty little secrets that you don’t learn in college is that so much of successful engineering is about copying designs that you know work, and that innovation comes through small, incremental changes to those designs. It’s hard to be on the cutting edge and come through with something that’s reliable right out of the gate.

B&M is a good example of this. They really slow walked a lot of their designs early on, making sure that the heights, speeds and forces worked at smaller scales before pushing the envelope to bigger and faster rides. And it’s why people were right to question if Zamperla was the right choice for this TT2 modification given the lack of comparable rides in their portfolio.

Walt S:

I honestly do not remember any where near this many issues with B&M's over the years

Just to be contradictory Fury pulled itself apart last year and they seem to be EOL sooner than other manufacturers?

That’s a good point about EOL happening sooner, I know BGT and IOA are full year parks but somehow Hulk and the Dragons needed full track replacement after less then 40 years while Scorpion, Big Thunder, Space (I know it’s inside) go for decades more.