Timberliner Testing resumes on the Voyage

SLFAKE, I don't think anyone will be able to answer that until they open to the public.

SLFAKE said:
How "forgiving" are timberliner trains when it comes to guest size? Will they be as accomodating as PTC's or will there be more of a risk that "larger" guests will be turned away?

Honestly Id guess somewhere around a 52 waist, but everyones a little different in shape. They are more accommodating than the MF trains for certain but IDK, Ive seen some pretty big people including myself get into PTCs. And a lot of that has to do with Divider and Side pad thickness..
Id venture to say most anybody can fit in the seats, The bar has to come down far enough that there is no chance of getting between the seat fins and the bar end. Even at HWN that was yet to be determined..

Will to Mike Graham "Do you think he'll fit?" Mike, "I think so, I designed it around him" Reffering to me. Was the last Convo I had directly with Will. :( I miss they guy!

Jason Hammond seems to know me pretty well...my 60-year comment was basically a number picked at random to mean, "a really long time". But it does make for an interesting exercise.

I'm inclined to think that for wood coasters, the last really noteworthy innovation might have been the locking lap bar, which dates to the 1920's (Victor Canfield could tell us for sure...). The common PTC train is a collection of technologies that have been around for a very long time in one form or another.

Rick_UK was asking about just how much of an innovation the Timberliners are, particularly compared with the Millennium Flyers...

Let me send you to a very old and somewhat outdated essay that I did back in 1999 (first posted to rec.roller-coaster August 25, 1999 - Message-ID 7q2ar6$gh6@acme.freenet.columbus.oh.us) that you can find illustrated on my web page here. That will save me a lot of typing and everybody else a lot of reading in this thread. :)

With the material in that article in mind, the Millennium Flyer cars are trailered cars that are a mechanical improvement on the old Prior & Church trains. The improvement is mostly technological, in that the Millennium Flyer train has the now-conventional 3-wheel arrangement (Prior & Church used a flanged road wheel an an upstop bar beneath the rail), replaces the ball and socket hitch with a spherical bearing with a pin through it (similar to Intamin trains), and adds a suspension component to the wheel carrier.

The Millennium Flyer works really well, but the wheels are still fixed to the chassis, so the lead axle has to scrub laterally across curves. The rest of the train can sort-of take curves pretty well, but the lead axle cannot, and that limits the curve radius for the entire train. It also reduces slightly the benefit to trailering the cars. The GCI design works very well, and the very short wheelbase mitigates most of the design's sins. It's a very simple design, and it runs a whole lot better than the PTC articulated cars.

The Timberliner train is built more like the PTC junior cars, updated with guide wheels instead of flanged road wheels. In fact, if you want to make a more direct comparison, the Timberliner chassis is built very much like the B&M trains. Each road wheel is accompanied by a pair of guide wheels which actively steer the wheel sets. Two guide wheels, one ahead of and one behind each road wheel are used so that the wheel sets are actually steered by both sides of the curve. In this way, every wheel set on the train is able to follow the track centerline exactly. As on a steel coaster, the wheels, and therefore the train, will go exactly where the track goes, and this should result in significant reductions in track wear, and result in a much smoother ride. As a side benefit, the more precise tracking and the lack of wheel slide should also eliminate (or at least nearly eliminate) the need for rail lubrication, while at the same time reducing track friction. THAT ought to translate into a *faster* ride.

I expect the Timberliner train to outperform the Millennium Flyer train. That said, the cost of the added performance is a significantly more complicated design, and the improvement over the Millennium Flyer is likely to be incremental. By comparison, both the Millennium Flyer and the Timberliner will significantly outperform the "standard" PTC and its copies.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I think the biggest win is the pairs of guide wheels, not just because of the steering, but because it essentially helps to "smooth out" any track imperfections while minimizing the bounce off the side rails. That's in my non-engineering opinion, of course. Didn't they post video somewhere of the train moving slowly through a slightly uneven joint at the transfer track, to show how well it tracked over it?

I hope it doesnt completly dampen the bumps in a wooden coaster track. The GP expect a wood coaster to be "rough" and Im not sure what the reaction will be to a steel coaster smooth ride. MFers significantly dampen the roughness but it is still there, I hope the TLers still have a hint of that as well. In the end that roughness and the way the track gives under you is the whole reason you make a wooden coaster instead of steel.

The guide wheel pairs are actually necessary to avoid the problem they had with the first prototype. The cars on the Lost Coaster of Superstition Mountain hunt like crazy when they hit straight track, but they can handle a 6' radius curve with relative ease. Fortunately, the only straight track on LoCoSuMo is the boarding platform and the elevator so it isn't really a problem. But the double guide wheels serve to steer the wheel set from both sides (the front outboard wheel and the rear inboard wheel) for better tracking.

There is a suspension under the seat, but I think that will take the harshness out, but it won't dampen the jounce too much. It will make for softer landings coming out of the airtime! Also, remember that on a Timberliner, all seats are axle seats, so there is a little more roughness there to begin with. I don't think we'll be disappointed in the "up and down" department, but fixing the tracking in the "side to side" area is what is going to make the maintenance department very happy. I remember Mike explaining at HWN this year that the Timberliner reduces the lateral load by some ridiculous percentage, and indicating that those loads are the ones that do the most damage to the ride.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I've had those same concerns, Touchdown...especially considering how much the "GP" hates El Toro... ;)

In regards to a wood coaster having the rough, or not B&M smooth aspect. The general public tends to put wooden coasters into the category for terrible coaster without even riding. For me, the not so smooth ride of a good woodie only adds to the effect of intensity and speed, but many other friends and family members amount this to a bad ride. An almost steel smooth (that we assume thus far) Voyage will only broaden its appeal to riders of the general public.

Personally, I just pray these babies make it to revenue service soon!! Combined with work demands and word of how busy HW has been this season, I just can't make it there until they're on, which is enthusiast blasphemy I know!! :(

Someone on the TGG Facebook page blasted TGG for moving on with the Quassy project prior to completed T-Liner implementation on The Voyage. I tried to set the record straight in regards to what these trains mean, both to TGG and to HW, and outlined some of the very valid reasons for the delay. Tried to do so in a convincing yet non-condescending manner.

DantheCoasterman said:
I've had those same concerns, Touchdown...especially considering how much the "GP" hates El Toro... ;)

Bingo. I really can't imagine non-enthusiasts saying, 'Man, Voyage sucked. It was just too damn smooth...'

I think the only complaints we'll hear about Timberliners are from enthusiasts.

Theres a couple reasons Voyage testing is taking longer than expected, One is some parts needed upgrading due to voyages extreme forces and the second is. Voyage did not initially open with timberliners and the track is bowed in places to the way the PTC runs them. There were some initial delay problems with the delivery of parts and one was TGGs fault..

The trains are good to go and proven, There should be no delay in the new coasters. From what Birdies have told me, There could be several dozen TL trains out in about in the next couple years.

Vater said:
I really can't imagine non-enthusiasts saying, 'Man, Voyage sucked. It was just too damn smooth...'

I think the only complaints we'll hear about Timberliners are from enthusiasts.

Another good example of the disconnect I was touching on in the other thread.

Even funnier because as I was reading this, I was starting to think, "Hey, this might finally smooth out the wood coaster experience and make it more enjoyable."

I so don't deserve to be called an enthusiast. :)

All complainers are enthusiasts, but not all enthusiasts are complainers. Like squares and rectangles... It's all about geometry, dammit.

Lord Gonchar said:
Even funnier because as I was reading this, I was starting to think, "Hey, this might finally smooth out the wood coaster experience and make it more enjoyable."

I so don't deserve to be called an enthusiast. :)

Not all enthusiasts think wood coasters should be rough. If the restraint system wasn't so damned uncomfortable (for larger people like myself), el Toro would be much higher on my list.

Jason, that is the reason El Toro is #2 on my woodies list. If the restraints didn't hurt so much it would be #1.

When we got to sit in them at the recent Holiwood Nights, it seemed the curved arm restraint would stick out to the side if down around a larger girthed rider and the little extra grasp area would be a little awkward to hold on to.

^Yeah, it seemed a bit awkward to me as well, when I sat in it (about 10 times). Overall, it was more comfy than being pinned by a PTC ratchet bar, with my legs squeezed together (my poor tenders); seems the T-liner may have a couple more 'tweeks' as they say.

For those who may not have seen it buried on the FB wall...

This fellow with the teasing grin is Mike from The Gravity Group. He stopped by my office the other day for a chat. I shared your questions with him. In short, the testing will end when it's completed -- we don't have a date or a time; almost certainly not by Labor Day Weekend, though (sorry). At this point they test f...or a while (gathering data), do some tweaking on this or that, then test some more. Mike brought along what I thought would make for a fun coloring book. It's some collection of secret drawings, detailing every inch and every angle of the Timberliner trains. And yes, both trains are here. Meanwhile, Mike heads home for the weekend and the original trains will be on Voyage's track for lots of great rides this weekend.

It was posted on Friday August 20th.

:( Oh well, I'll ride next year