Statement from Holiday World

Wow; we're all typing at once on this thread...

Jeremy, there are a couple of inaccuracies with the material you posted. First of all, the seat belts on Holiday World's rides, including the Raven, are not aircraft-style #800 buckles as are frequently seen on PTC trains, but rather push-button automotive type buckles (that aren't generally used much in automobiles anymore since the auto industry switched to end-release buckles) which are less succeptible to inadvertent release.

Second, part of the reason for fastening the belt around the lap bar is that there is nothing under the seat cushion in the back seat of a PTC articulated car except the car's rear axle. If the belt falls down between the bench and back cushion, it lands on the track assuming it doesn't get caught under the road wheel first. I suspect that this may be the reason PTC uses those big clunky aircraft-style buckles; the buckles Holiday World uses are much nicer and a lot more comfortable, not to mention easier to fasten and harder to unfasten. They're also much thinner and could easily slide down between cushions.

Third, in response to your question...
On every ride I took on Raven and The Legend last weekend, an operator physically tugged on my seat belt. This appeared to be standard practice...a mechanical inspection of every seat belt on every dispatch.

I see Jeff understands my point. For practical purposes (though it would be very difficult to meet engineering standards...proving a negative again) if you put an unrestrained person in a normal seated position in the train and it consistently comes back to the station, you can have some degree of confidence (probably related to the number of successful trips) that the condition is 'safe'.

From an engineering perspective, a better test would be to place a 'body' in the seat in a standing position and see what happens. Does that "rider" still come back every time?

The challenge is not only to identify a 'safe' condition, but also to identify an 'unsafe' one. Identifying things that did not fail doesn't tell you what happened.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I posted earlier in this thread and will reiterate that the ride ops tugged on my lap belt every single time I rode, both on Raven and Legend. In one case, the ride op tightened my son's belt. This appeared to be standard practice during normal business hours AND during ERT.

Also, I think it should be noted that the release buttons on the seatbelts are slightly recessed.

As for witnesses, I agree it would be extremely difficult for anyone in the train (except for her riding partner) to notice her "standing" in the ride. But keep in mind there are also others who are in the restricted areas. I recall a conversation on Friday evening where someone from last year's SRM noticed while on the walk back that someone was indeed standing in the coaster and alerted the appropriate staff. Personally, I feel there are some people who like to push the limits.

Being a lighter person, I find that I tend to come off my seat a great deal. I'm careful about keeping my seatbelt tighter because of this (goes back to the days when there were no seatbelts and buzz bars...I just feel safer with the seatbelts). I have no doubt if I didn't have my seatbelt tightened sufficiently, I would become airborne enough to hit the lapbar. And this woman was 30 pounds lighter than I am.

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I'd rather die living than live like I'm dead
http://www.webtechnik.com/ebony/CPLady.htm

I have never been to HW, but understand it's customer service is excellent and they have a couple of great coasters and some flats. And family owned. Sounds similar to Michigan's Adventure before CF's purchase.

I was riding Timbers shortly before the incident at HW. My belt was always checked (and tightened at least once), as was the lapbar. I have a feeling that HW was NOT at fault for this accident, as they were doing the same safety procedures.

What the rider does after entering the lift hill is beyond anyone's control. Except the rider.

MrScott

From an engineering perspective, a better test would be to place a 'body' in the seat in a standing position and see what happens. Does that "rider" still come back every time?

The challenge is not only to identify a 'safe' condition, but also to identify an 'unsafe' one. Identifying things that did not fail doesn't tell you what happened.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Dave are we talking about highbacks?

Chuck, who was thinking just that when the standing position was mentioned and in ravens case even with those restraints, Standing might not have been intentional.

Chuck, accepting the fact that improper practices were probably a significant cause but may not be the total reason.

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Charles Nungester.
It's official Lesourdsville Lake is closed for 2003

From Holiday World's website:

"[Tony] Rossi stated a person who is sitting correctly in a roller coaster seat--with backside down on the seat and feet on the floor of the car--would not come out during a ride, even if that person were not holding on."

"Rossi's inspection will include a review of all Raven maintenance records and every inspection record. Engineers will be on hand Friday to assist in "test dummy" testing of the ride, as part of the inspection process."

--Ryan

I just watched last year's Top Ten Coasters to watch footage of The Raven. I had forgotten how violent the ride was, even though I only rode it last summer. The fifth hill doesn't look that bad, but maybe a reprofile will be in order to prevent this from ever happening again.
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If you have a problem with clones, the solution is real simple—Stop traveling.

Why reprofile the whole ride when all you have to do is keep the restraits as the ride ops put them?

Sorry, I may be speculating again. But, so were those who said a piece of foam wouldn't hurt the Space Shuttle.

MrScott

It is WAY too early to speculate on a reprofile. Please, let's wait until we see what the final outcome even is.

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Mary Jane, don't you cry, you can give it a try, Again when the sequel comes out" -- Weird Al, Ode to a Superhero

Reprofile? Please. They aren't even through with the investigation yet. I'm sure a reprofile is at the back of everyone's mind right now.

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2002/2003
KWTM

All this talk about lap bars, restraints and the like, we don't know for sure what happened, so lets just wait the two (2) weeks, and get teh official report. Unfortunately, accidents happen. They happen with cars, planes, trains, boats, rides, coasters, etc....ad infiniy. The only person who may ever know the truth is no longer with us, be it a freak accident, a rider doing something they shouldn't, human error, etc. again, ad infinity.

Just hopeful that Holiday World will bounce back as quick as humanly possible, and that the staff and extended family heals reasonably.
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Kiss me, I'm stylish!! :)

The really odd thing about this is the number of young kids who ride the Raven a dozen times a day. Last year when I was out there I sat on a bench snacking and watching some of these kids get off, race back in line, and ride it over and over. They were waving their hands in the air and not holding on, drop after drop. Many of these kids weigh about 60-80 pounds and have no waistline at all. Yet none of them have ever been involved in any incident.
It's also ironic that standing in line talking to them, lots of kids admit they don't ride The Legend yet because their parents won't let them, or because they're too scared. A few said they had tried it once and been so scared they don't think they'll ride it again until they're in Middle School. They just like the Raven because it's exciting but they feel they can handle it.
And now it's the Raven that has the fatality. Bizarre.

I'll probably get kicked off for this comment, but hey thats ok. After hearing of this accident, everyone had it in the back of their mind what had occurred. The chances of the seatbelt malfunctioning are slim. The chance of the lap bar malfunction, also slim. So we all knew that she either stood up or did something else to cause her to fall out. Don't get me wrong it's a tragedy, but everyone had a strong idea that this was not a malfunction of equipment or a ride op's mistake. lets call a spade a spade

Chuck: What I am talking about is trying to re-create the conditions of the accident. At the moment I am considering only the train as it now exists. If you can prove that an unsecured rider sitting in the train would not be tossed from the ride (that is, if the ride passes the Timber Wolf test, if you remember that incident), you have identified a possibly safe condition and you can begin to speculate that at the time of the accident something was different. The most obvious thing to try, then, is the rider position and posture. If you move the rider into, for instance, a standing position, can you then demonstrate that the rider will be thrown? Can you demonstrate that the location is similar to the actual incident? In other words, can you demonstrate an unsafe condition consistent with the results of the accident? My guess is that we will know sometime next week.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I hate hearing people say that word... "Reprofile". Especially after hearing the maintenence guy, Jeff, say he's "worked on Raven for three years and every board is perfect. It's finished."

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CBClub member #30 and #364 (renewal)

The only reprofiling I see Raven ever getting is to add support for a second train. Regardless of the negative press, the ride didn't get its #1 rating by accident. You don't mess with that, especially if testing determines the ride is "safe" (however the experts define that).

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

Agreed that there wont be a reprofile IF the ride is determined to be safe. However if not then there is a possibility that there will be. As of right now I am betting on that there wont be any changes in the near future for the Raven.

As far as adding a second train to the Raven, I doubt that will happen as the ride is over to quickly to effectively unload and reload another train. However, the park may decide otherwise in the future.

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Zero G Thrills - Moved and Improved

I can think of two mechanical changes we might see to the restraints on both coasters; neither change is significant, and most people probably wouldn't notice. And neither would have made a bit of difference in this case.

As for a second train...
With Holiday World's normal operations, a second train would make a difference because while it is a very short ride, it takes longer to load than it does to run it. It would be a bit like the two trains on Mr. Freeze. It would stack all the time, but the overall cycle time would be reduced, resulting in a capacity improvement.

As a general rule, a second train will almost always increase capacity even if it always stacks, because you're eliminating 'down time' in the station. It's when you talk about adding even more units (impossible on the Holiday World coasters) that stacking and double-stacking may eliminate the benefits of additional units.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

What is the Raven's time from release off the lift to brake run? or overall time?
Betting it is in the same ball park time wise as the Ozark Wildcat and it has two trains. Stacking does occur now and then. The main culprit is the fact that there is no test seat so larger guests can know before hand if they can ride or not. Having a full staff of two on load side and two on unload side is another key. Even with some stacking though capacity is much improved over one train operations.

Jim Wolgamuth

I just got back from a coaster trip down south (NC, SC, GA, TN, AL) and can't tell you how devestaing this news is. I was at Paramount's Carowinds at the time of the accident. My prayers go to the family of the victim, Holiday World and the Koch family. The pictuere above of Bill on the Georgia Cyclone reminded me of what happened to me on that same ride on Monday. My seat belt and lap bar was at normal riding condition (not like the one-two click) and the forth drop after the second turnaround took me by compete shock. I was in the same seat and somewhat similar position that Bill is in the picture. Believe me, it was not accidental and I even put my hands down and grabbed on to something in fear of leaving the seat completely.

I believe the Knott's Berry farms' operation procedure will come into play after this incident, at least to the point of riding with your lap bar down normally. One click-two click procedure may be thrown out for a while, not by just the parks but also us, the enthusiasts.

Jeff's post about determing if the ride is "safe" made me think about this whole incident a bit more. And an interesting thought occured to me.

I've come to realize that safety is a very relative thing when it comes to amusement rides. I mean it's clear that the Raven is "safe" already as it has had thousands of riders on it who have not been hurt. And they've already declared that the restraints were functioning properly. On the other hand, could this happen again? It's conceivable.

Then there's the Matterhorn at DL. It has had several deaths. One a definite stand up situation, and the other I'm not sure they ever found the reason. Yet the ride still runs today with rider defeatable seatbelts as the only restraint. And though it has had recent modifications, you could still stand up on it and be killed. Yet despite these incidents, and the potential for more, the ride is declared safe and runs pretty much as it always has.

After thinking about these situations, I've come to the conclusion that more needs to be done. I just find it strange that parks would be comfortable with restraints that can be rider defeated. It puts them at risk for higher insurance cost, lawsuits and can take a popular ride out of action for weeks or months resulting in lost revenue.

I hear comments like "parks can't protect people from themeselves" and while that is true to some extent, having something rider defeatable...well... defeats the purpose of restraining in the first place doesn't it?

Would it be expensive to modify trains with a restraint that riders couldn't mess with? Yeah, probably. But how much value do you put on one (or more) life? And if you are a park owner, how much value would there be in a system that prevents incidents that give your park negative publicity and possiblly legal issues to contend with? Not to mention the emotional issues that arise after a death in your park.

Something for people to think about.