Statement from Holiday World

I didn't mean to suggest that the rider openned the seatbelt on purpose, I just meant to state that the seatbelt was open either by rider choice or by accident. It probably lead to this unfortunate incident.

As to the lapbar. I didn't mean to state it had no purpose. Yes, it is to be a redundant system, but in my opinion, unless it was stapled down so tight that you couldn't even breathe, it still may not keep you in this ride by itself, unless you were holding on really tight to the restraint bar. It is made to work in conjunction with the seatbelt for the rider's protection.

Just as in an automobile. The seatbelt is the primary restraint system and the airbag is secondary or redundant. Without the seatbelt fastened, the airbag itself may not keep you from serious injury or death in a serious accident. Yes, seatbelts actually do save lives no matter how old the technology.

------------------
Joey
_________________________
CATHERINE ROCKS! CP RULES!
*** This post was edited by coasterkingoftheworld 6/3/2003 12:13:08 AM ***

---

thatGuyOverThere said:

First time poster on CoasterBuzz, but I have to point something out: http://www.themeparkreview.com/srm2002/hw86.jpg Holiday World does allow one-click rides, so please, don't be so quick to shoot down someone.

---

Perhaps that was the case last year, but...

While riding Raven and Legend over the course of this past weekend I witnessed multiple occasions on both coasters where a rider attempting to take a one-click ride was told that he or she needed to lower the lapbar further.

------------------
James Draeger
"Scroll buttons aww yeah...like that, heart attack."

The only method I know that make sure seatbelts are locked and cannot be unlocked by the rider during the ride is the one used on certain motion simulators and the Disney EMV dark rides.

Having worked on Star Tours, the seatbelt is kept locked by a pneumatic system. The only ways to unlatch them is the automatic release (at the end of the tour) and the button to lock and unlock them (unreachable from any seats). That system, combined with the standard car seatbelt system, means every rider has a seatbelt that cannot come loose, come off, etc.

If coaster trains have to go this far... its may have to.

I agree with Draegs on that one. It was my first event and my first trip to HW, but I did see on multiple occasions ride-ops preventing one click rides. Anyways, this is definately NOT the time to attack the park or it's rules. This is a time to sympathize with the family of the victim and the Kochs.

------------------
Chris Holderbaum
"The Brightest flame Burns Quickest"

As a former coaster operator, seeing pictures of those "one-click" riders leaving the station is very disturbing. Safety devices are not installed to piss off enthusiasts, they are installed to protect life.

If an enthusiast or any other rider chooses to circumvent the safety system, that is sad. If a park knowingly allows it to happen, that is tragic.

We don't know the details of this particular case but it is apparent that the term "one click" rides came from somewhere and has been associated, at least in the past, with the Raven.

I don't know any details about this incident, and I don't know anything about the restraint's on HW coasters... However, I'm just going to add my 2 cents on all of this talk of Primary and Secondary restraint system.

One observance:

Off the top of my head, the following wooden coasters runn with lap bars (either "buzz bars" or individual ratcheting lap bars) only: Knoebels Phoenix, Lakemont's Skyliner, Conneaut Lake's Blue Streak, Kennywood's Thunderbolt and Racer, all wooden coasters at PKD, and (up until a few years ago) Hersheypark's Comet. Some of these have some very intense moments of air time

Other parks running similar trains run with seat belts AND lap bars.

I fall into the line of thought that the lap bar is the primary and the seatbelt is secondary... if not... then please explain the above examples?

------------------
Kind of hard to take a post as objective if a park or coaster name is part of the "user name"

Conneaut Lake runs different trains now. They only use a leather strap, just like Kennywood's Jackrabbit.

------------------
Don't ask me if I'm in a bad mood; I naturally look "mean." I don't ask if you're goofy because you have buck teeth.

AIM: Pritti Kittie

I was also under the impression that the seatbelts were the secondary form of restraint. Carowinds, my home park, runs the Hurler and Thunder Road without seatbelts, and on good days there are a couple moments of extreme airtime. The ejector air on the Hurler on its first 3 bunny hops is enough to throw you out if you didnt have the lapbar (on a good day that is). My friends and I frequently engaged in one-click rides on this ride and Thunder Road until news of this tragedy. It is infact very possible to stand up and exit the train with your lap bar at only one click. Why, if the seatbelts are the main form of protection, does Carowinds run two airtime-intensive woodies without them?

---

Absimilliard said:

Having worked on Star Tours, the seatbelt is kept locked by a pneumatic system. The only ways to unlatch them is the automatic release (at the end of the tour) and the button to lock and unlock them (unreachable from any seats). That system, combined with the standard car seatbelt system, means every rider has a seatbelt that cannot come loose, come off, etc.

---

I've often wondered why all coasters dont have a system similar to the one you describe. What's the point of having a safety device if it can be easily defeated by the rider? Kennywoods Jack Rabbit is a prime example of this. Don't get me wrong, I like the ride, but it would only take one person with poor judgement to cause a devastating situation.

It is interesting that the Star Tours set up was brought up. It is the only system I can think of that verifies seatbelts are fastened and won't allow them to be unfastened. It looks good but I imagine the cost would be startling. Those pneumatics would have to be self contained in the train.

I am of the belief that if people want to break the rules they will find a way to do so.

For what it's worth, Disney's EMVs (Test Track, Dinosaur, and The Indiana Jones Adventure) don't allow you to unbuckle your seat belt during the ride.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this discussion, however. It seems, somehow, disrespectful to Paula; as if to ignore her. Maybe it's better that this be moved elsewhere.

Sorry.

------------------
--Maddie--

This topic is closed. You may not reply.
This topic was closed before you could reply.
Foiled again.

The belts, if you can call them that, on the Vekoma flying coasters also lock and cannot be removed for obvious reasons. These Vekomas are also unique in that the lap bars are dead bolted and cannot move either looser or tighter once latched.

---

jimster03 said:

I've often wondered why all coasters dont have a system similar to the one you describe. What's the point of having a safety device if it can be easily defeated by the rider? Kennywoods Jack Rabbit is a prime example of this. Don't get me wrong, I like the ride, but it would only take one person with poor judgement to cause a devastating situation.

---

I've also wondered why PTC puts the manual restraint release in such an easily reached place from inside the train. I've seen "enthusiasses" with home made tools used to pull up on the manual release, to open the restraint, while the ride was in motion.

First of all, I am not addressing this particular accident in this post, as i cannot know what exactly happened at this time.

BUT

That picture above of the riders leaving the station is sickening. Lapbars in that position no way will keep a rider from being ejected. And seatbelts do become unbuckled easy. All you have to do is hit a button to do that. Lapbars do not come undone until they are released by the operator (unless there is failure).

This "my seatbelt keeps me in so i dont have to use the lapbar correctly" mentality is unexcusable, especially after this accident.

And true, parks should not allow riders to ride like that (and unfortunately that picture above has got some lawyer drooling at this moment). But ultimately, it is the riders responsibility to be sure they are safely secured on each ride, not some high school or college student that has other things on their mind at the end of a long day.

We always ride with the lapbar touching our legs, and guess what, we still have a lot of fun. Safely.
*** This post was edited by super7 6/3/2003 1:41:47 PM ***

I don't agree with you super7. It is the operators responsibility to see to it that your seatbelt is fastened and your lapbar/shoulder harness is secured. They are trained to do that...you aren't. The train shouldn't leave the station until everyone is secure.

It is YOUR responsibility not to tamper with the bar or seatbelt once the train is rolling.

As a former coaster operator I still rely on operators to come by and make sure I am fastened in correctly. And, if I am concerned that something might not be right I make sure to let someone know.

In all the rides i have taken where all operators do is run by and tap on your lapbar, i sure as heck am not going to rely on them for my safety. I personally make sure my lap bar is down correctly and pull up on it to be sure it is secure.

Like I said... this is not the place to look for blame or start blaming people. Don't go there.

------------------
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

And like I said, I'm not talking about this incident. Im talking about the above referenced picture and that kind of behavior. The entire point of my post is to make people think about this kind of behavoir in the future and not to depend entirely on others for your personal safety, not to lay blame.

*** This post was edited by super7 6/3/2003 2:28:01 PM ***

Well it looks like we are definitely trying to blame a piece of equipment that did NOT fail. Whether it was by rider error, or otherwise this person did not have to die. That is for sure. I fully expect much to the disappointment of many people that Holiday World will likely be stapling people in their coaster in the near future. I believe that will happen irregardless of the outcome of the inquiry into this unfortunate event. We can create many hypothetical scenarios how she might have gotten thrown out of the train. I am not going to begin to discuss them out of respect for the deceased, their family and friends, and Holiday World.

I know as for me I will think twice before leaving my lapbar unnecessarily loose. Even though I have faith in seatbelts. I for one did not even dare to leave much (if any) room on Legend because it felt as though it was trying to throw me out. Heck I even held the lapbar at times for added safety. I love the coaster so dont misinterpret what I am saying. I am also not saying that it would help if the belt came undone either.

Personally I dont think it would have made much difference on the Raven if the lapbar was all the way down or not, unless she was trying to stand up on the ride. But we will leave that determination to the ride inspectors.

------------------
Zero G Thrills - Moved and Improved

Technical notes here...

First of all, the photograph that so many people are talking about still proves nothing. As Wahoo noted, it is the operator's responsibility to not dispatch the train until it is ready to go (or to stop it on the lift if it isn't). We can assume, therefore, that while the lap bar position shown in the photograph may look ridiculous to us, it conforms to the park's operating guidelines at the time the photograph was taken. Furthermore, as the photo was taken at least a year ago, we can also assume that the riders pictured survived their ride on the coaster with no ill effects. Apparently, under normal circumstances, it is safe to ride that coaster under those conditions. That is a demonstrable fact.

Now, the issue has come up of how to lock out a seat belt, or to detect its status...

Remember that when the train is out on the course, the only telemetry between the coaster and the ride control is any block detection out on the course. Some coasters use mechanical devices to do one-time checks of rigid restraints, notably those rides (Arrow multi-element coasters come immediately to mind) which have "bi-stable" restraint latching...that is, the restraint can be held in either the locked or the unlocked position. On the Philadelphia Toboggan lap bar, the ratchet bar is only unlocked when the spring-loaded release plunger on the outside of the car is activated. So if the train is not in the station, the lap bars are locked, and no check is necessary.

Seat belts are another issue. If you want to lock a seat belt buckle in such a way that you can unlock it by remote control, you have to have some way of connecting it to the ride control system. On the motion base rides described earlier, the buckle is rigidly attached to the vehicle frame so that a mechanical, electrical, or pneumatic locking device can be employed. Coaster technology makes this somewhat impractical unless you build the buckle into either the outside wall of the train or into the seat divider. It's technically possible, but quite frankly, is it worth the effort and expense to build a potentially expensive and unreliable system in an effort to prevent a tiny fraction of riders from misbehaving?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.