Statement from Holiday World

Jeff: I'm not looking to place any blame. I do not personally know any of the HW employees/owners as some of you do. From what I've heard, they run an outstanding operation and I would like to visit someday. However, it is important to look into all likely causes of this type of incident and try to come up with solutions.

super7: It's great that you are a responsible person. Some of the people that ride coasters are not. Many of them are even younger than 'High School age'. At some parks they may even have their judgement impaired by alcohol that the park sold to them, but thats a whole different issue. The operators are trained and being paid to run the rides in a safe manner. They should not have 'other things' on their mind. Some would assume that if a trained operator allows a rider to position a lap bar as shown in the above picture then it is OK. After all they are more familiar with the ride.

I've been hesitant to weigh in on this, just because I have a hard time not being angry about it. However, the one I think we can all agree upon is that we should all hope that Holiday World suffers no ill effects from this incident.

My wife was wearing her new Legend t-shirt to class yesterday, and a classmate of hers was shocked that she would "wear a t-shirt from that place where that woman was killed." This type of image with the public is that last thing that Holiday World needs. I hope that the truth about this incident comes out quickly, but sadly, the only person who may really know what happened is sure to be biased in his view of the situation.

God bless Holiday World and God bless the Kochs.
*** This post was edited by Mark W. Baruth 6/3/2003 2:36:08 PM ***

I think that some people believe that restraints or not, the physics of a ride's design will keep them from being ejected, when in fact the restraints are the only thing holding them in at certain moments of the ride. You have to personally check your restraints each time. Of course, this might not prevent a mechanical failure, but it would eliminate much of the human factor from accidents.

All that having been said, my sympathy to the victim, her family, and the extended coaster family.

Mark, I had a similar experience. I told someone (a person who has been to HW and knows I have plans to go in August) about the death, and that person could not believe I would still go after this. I told her people have died on the road outside the building, but you still drive on it. She said it's totally different. That's an attitude I do not understand.

All I know is, when I heard the news, I hurt inside like a member of my family had died. This, from someone who has never met a member of the Koch family, who has spent no more than 8 hours at the park in his life, who maintains a detached presence from the enthusiast community.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

Dave, I was with you until you said:
Apparently, under normal circumstances, it is safe to ride that coaster under those conditions.

You cannot conclude that a system is safe from the demonstrated absence of failure in one instance of a set of cases. Proof by example is nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

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http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~bnoble/

Here is another article from the New York City area:

http://www.wnbc.com/news/2242838/detail.html

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Take a Virtual Ride:
http://badnitrus.coasterbuzz.com
Mike "Viper" Semtak

That Cincinatti tv story is the first I have seen that printed the possibility that the woman was standing. They don't back that statement up with an facts or even an eyewitness so I wonder where they got that information from.

I would like to see the ride manufacturers manuals that say their ride is safe to operate in a "one-click" scenario. I suspect that is not the case.

RideMan said:
Technical notes here...

. Apparently, under normal circumstances, it is safe to ride that coaster under those conditions. That is a demonstrable fact.

This is exactly what i am talking about? SAFE? to ride with the lap bar so far in the air that somone could be sitting on your lap? Maybe these riders' seatbelts held them in on that ride, but i would not call it SAFE riding like that. A seatbelt is a piece of equipment that can be unfastened by the rider.

There will be more posted in the coming days, I'm sure, but it looks like the net outcome will be rider error:

http://www.holidayworld.com/preliminaryprosecutorsreport.html

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Mary Jane, don't you cry, you can give it a try, Again when the sequel comes out" -- Weird Al, Ode to a Superhero
*** This post was edited by GregLeg 6/3/2003 3:33:49 PM ***

Is it confirmed she was standing up
beast7369's avatar
I would not say yet that it was "confirmed", but will reiterate that the preliminary prosecutors report indicates that someone fitting her description may have been standing up. So until Holiday World or anyone else confirms that as fact we probably should proceed as though it is only rumor.

Either way it wont be good for us enthusiasts or the general public. Likely the rules at Holiday World will not be as relaxed as they once were IF it is deemed to be that she was.

The fact she was only about 100 lbs scares me now as it easily could have been any number of my friends in the coaster enthusiast community and even my girlfriend that this could have happened to. (Note: My girlfriend was not one to leave her lapbar loose due to the fact that the ride scared her enough with it tight on her lap.) Also not saying that would have kept her in the car or not either way but the buckled seat belt should IF (and there was not) any mechanical problem with it.

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Zero G Thrills - Moved and Improved

I just think its sad that somebody lost their life and all some of you keep talking about is how you don't wanna see modifications made to the ride. It's flat out pathetic. I'm a rollercoaster fan too by all means but come on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,priorities? You best check em.

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"You know its a good ride when you come into the final break run wiping tears from your eyes"-me

I'm going to disagree with Rideman here a bit. Safe is a relative concept. One of the common safety falacies is that "it hasn't happened yet" means it won't happen. The industrial design standard for a given operation to be safe enough is one death per 100,000 years. There of course are many such operations going on at any industrial facility.

The fact that 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 riders rode without injury does not indicate that a ride system is sufficiently safe. There are several hundred million rollercoaster rides taken each year in this country. Our average fatality rate for coasters is between one and two deaths in that many rides. Yes, 2003 already qualifies as worst than average.

ASTM standards call for redundent restraints for rides meeting certain criteria. They are required for those rides because the consequences of a lack of restraint are potentially high. Redundent means that either restraint by itself will hold the rider safely in the ride. One is not primary and one secondary. They are of equal importance. Both need to be used properly so that either will hold the rider safely in the event that the other fails.

A quick note on standing up. I would just like to say that standing up deliberately is obviously stupid. However, from personal experience, I can say that standing up can be an involuntary result of inadequate restraint on rides with negative Gs. It isn't always deliberate.
*** This post was edited by Jim Fisher 6/3/2003 5:00:06 PM ***

GregLeg said:
There will be more posted in the coming days, I'm sure, but it looks like the net outcome will be rider error:

I am re-posting something I added to a listserv conversation.

I AM NOT BUYING THIS!
Nope, I dont for a second believe that this woman was
purposely standing up on the ride. Moreover, I'd like
to know what *witnesses* claimed to see this. If they
were on the train, how likely is it that they were
looking back at the right time to see her standing?
If they were on the ground, how could they see that
particular portion of the ride? The "fifth hill" is
well secluded from public views of the ride.

Moreover, if they saw *this* picture (
http://www.joyrides.com/sfog/full/georgia_cyclone5.htm
) would they assume that Bill was standing up too?
That hill on Raven is famous (perhaps notorious) for
giving "standing air". This woman might well have
been in a "virtually standing" position when the
witnesses saw her, but that is no guarantee that she
was doing so of her own volition.

My "gut" feeling is that the bar was a little too
high, the belt was not properly connected and she was
not holding on. I wish someone who was ther could
comment on just one thing: Were the ops tugging on the
seatbelt *each* and *every* time through? Or did they
visually inspect it?

And to reply to something Bill said earlier regarding
if a belt that can jiggle loose is a proper design.
As we pretty much all know, the belts on PTC trains
like Raven's are styled after airline belts. These
are actually meant to be easily opened in cases of
emergency. A simple flip up of the lid, in
conjunction with a slight tug on the "free" end of the
belt will unfasten the belt. Now, with the aggressive
nature of coasters in general and Raven in partcular,
it is entirely possible for the "flip" to bump against
something at the same time as the belt is under a
modicum of tension. That's about all it would take
for the belt to come undone.

Furthermore, there is nothing to suggest that the belt
did not come unbuckled AFTER she was ejected. I would
suggest that the chances of the belt "self-releasing"
would be greater when there is no rider being
restrained. Ever wonder why on PTC trains ops will
buckle the belt around the lapbar? It's obviously not
to keep the bar down. I had simply assumed it was to
keep the belt from flopping around an hitting the
adjacent rider. But if the belt was simply buckled in
the seat, and not around the lapbar, that shouldnt be
a problem as the motion would be confined to the
"bucket" of the bucket seats. However, if simply
flopping around in the "bucket" could cause the belt
to unfasten, it would then pose a hazzard. It only
now comes to me that if the belt is fastened with a
measure of tension in the belt, it is not going to
move around much if at all. Thereby greatly reducing
the probability that it would hit something that would
move the flap.

Also note that the Intamin "European" styled buckles
dont have this problem. I would conjecture that it
would be *extremely* difficult to get one of those
open with simple jostling, even if they are left
slacked. Not surprisingly, the ops do NOT buckle
those belts around the lapbars when a seat is empty,
thay simply buckle the belt. There *must* be a reason
for this differing procedure even within the same park
(SFA for example). Perhaps the Intamin design is
better suited for the rollercoaster environment.
lata, jeremy

One other thing that I would like to add, in my opinion (and I am only a licensed Engineering Intern and NOT a Professional Engineer), the seatbelts could have been funtioning normally and *still* have come aloose inadvertantly. The flaw that I speak of above is not a flaw in mechanical parts, but rather a design flaw/feature. It is a beneficial feature in aircraft use, but it *may* (and I stess *MAY*) not be desirable in rollercoaster use.
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The world's next Miss Universe?

Dante, let's just speculate on the "evidence" we have heard here about Tamar's unbuckled seatbelt. Assuming that she did unbuckle her seatbelt...that is tantamount to playing Russian Roulette but with a rollercoaster instead of a gun.

You must also understand that I am not saying that coasters=guns, but at the same rate, anything that could cause harm if you use it in an unsafe manner (i.e. unbuckling your seatbelt in a coaster or a car, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, etc.) is just asking for a tragedy to happen.

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--George H
---Currency tracking experiment... http://www.wheresgeorge.com (Referring to The "George" on the $1 bill - Not Me)

Brian: You are absolutely correct; the absence of a failure does not necessarily indicate success. Negatives are very difficult to prove. And yet, that is going to be extremely important in evaluating the ride during the incident investigation process. I speculate that this is what will happen on Friday. If I am correct, then the objective that day will be to re-create the accident in a controlled, monitored, safe manner. Testing should demonstrate whether a high lap bar is a safe way to ride or not. My hypothesis, based on my own experience with the ride, is that it is. With any luck, Mr. Rossi and his team will find out for certain this week.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Jeff's avatar
I think what Dave might have been getting at is that if you were to put an unrestrained "body" in a normal sitting position on this ride, would it stay within the bounds of the seat throughout the ride? I've had plenty of room between me and the bar on Raven, and at no time did my legs hit the bar. In my mostly unscientific observation for my particular body, there is not adequate vertical airtime to propel my body high enough to strike a "loose" lapbar or ascend higher than the confines of the seat otherwise.

Lateral forces would be another story entirely, but for that I'd have to consider whether or not my body would fit between the seat divider and a loose bar. In my case, I know my fat ass wouldn't.

The appropriate questions, in my opinion, deal in two areas. One, what is philisophically "safe" in terms of forced restraint (lapbar you can't open) and rider-responsible restraint (seatbelt the rider can open)? Two, is the design of the minimum closure of both devices adequate? I think those two questions are important if we're ever to even approach the responsibility of the park or the victim.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

It is a beneficial feature in aircraft use, but it *may* (and I stess *MAY*) not be desirable in rollercoaster use.

From what I have heard, the seatbelts aren't the normal metal buckle ones (which I agree do come undone if between you and the side of the car), but ones like you get on cars/automobiles with a push-button. Just thought I would clear that up in case there's a mis-understanding.
Correct. The seatbelts on Raven and Legend are NOT the flip-buckle airplane style buckles at all, but pushbuttons more akin to car seat belts.

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Mary Jane, don't you cry, you can give it a try, Again when the sequel comes out" -- Weird Al, Ode to a Superhero

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