Starliner gets new life at Cypress Gardens

"At least around here, you can't throw a stone without finding a "saved" or "preserved" carousel. Can't say the same about roller coasters."

Doesn't that make the few remaining older roller coasters more significant since relatively few of them have been saved?

I'm not talking about significance, I'm talking about "aggregate cultural value," which ultimately is the driving force behind the preservation of anything we cherish.

It depends on what you're talking about. The comparison of a roller coaster to a Yugo is, as you would put it, stupid. Take popularity into consideration and your concept is shot to hell. Of course no one is ever going to care about a Yugo- no one liked the things when they were new and they haven't gotten any better as they've aged. As for a roller coaster like the Starliner, it was popular- people rode it and people loved it. Clearly that's going to make it worth something whereas the Yugo is worth nothing.

Ten years ago, what was the value of an original NES with games and controllers? If you went to your local Funcoland, they'd likely have bought the thing from you for $4.50 in store credit. Go on eBay and search for a complete NES system- you'll likely see the things going for fifty, sixty, even seventy bucks. You know why? Because there's not that many of them around anymore... at least not ones that are worth buying. That makes them worth money. People are going crazy over old video games- look at the popularity of the Wii's Virtual Console. That gives them nostalgic value.

I'm not insinuating this logic applies to everything, but something popular like a roller coaster is surely going to have some kind of value while a Yugo does not. Same for a Daihatsu. Or a Citreon. Or a Peugeot.

It's not stupid for what you said. You said, "When examples of a certain thing disappear, they become more valuable, whether you're talking monetary value or nostalgic value." I suppose you put the "certain thing" qualifier in there, but then, who decides which things those are?

Yeah, that was exactly my point. It's the aggregate. The aggregate decides what's valuable. They decide a classic NES system is valuable. They're not doing the same for old roller coasters.

I did put the "certain thing" in there because I figured that was assumed but I now see that it wasn't. As far as who decides what those things are, it's clearly society... but let's not forget one simple fact- hardcore enthusiasts of anything are members of society. It's not like they exist in some alternate reality consisting of lepers.

Whose to say that the aggregrate isn't doing the same for amusement parks and roller coasters? Things are designated National Landmarks because society as a whole feels they deserve that status. The aggregate clearly felt strongly about places like Rye Playland, Kennywood and the Santa Monica Beach Boardwalk. I'm not suggesting that means all of society is behind a movement to preserve old amusement parks and roller coasters, but the portion of society that does care is probably larger than you think.

I remember reading a really great book from the early to mid 70s about amusement parks. (I can't for the life of me think of the name of it or the author right now) But they had some pictures Starliner's original construction. I also remember the author commented that while the coaster was fairly big, the 70mph speed claim was hard to believe. I guess Cypress is just recylcling old marketing claims about the ride!

How do you know roller coasters have no "aggregate cultural value". Yeah, a small minority of people are as obsessed as we are, but roller coasters are a pretty familiar thing that shows up pretty often in our culture, and nearly early everybody can relate to one. Hell, there is even a tampon commercial out right now that uses roller coaster imagery.

A few people at work are aware of my interest and once in a while I get a question about roller coaster history. Oftentimes people are surprised that wooden roller coasters still exist, and they seem genuinely intriqued that there are still antique rides in existence. There is a lack of awareness but not a lack of interest which tells me that there is broader appeal for roller coaster history than some may realize.

And even without broad appeal, should that diminish their value? Since when is history a popularity contest?

Cropsey: Is that book Step Right Up, Folks?

Remember that PBS documentary on the history of coasters and how they, along with amusement parks, changed the way people socialized in the late 1800s and early 1900s?

Yeah...good times... ;)

Very true, moosh and Joe. Amusement parks compete with television, movies, video games, outdoor activities and about a million other things, but years ago they were a premier source of entertainment. That's something that clearly solidifies the amusement park's place in history. While a small number of enthusiasts are the most vocal about amusement parks, it's not like their the only ones that care about them on any kind of level. And last time I checked, museums do more than attract just the hardcore hobbyists and fans, because if they're the only ones that museums attracted, no museum in this country would be justified.

Except for the barbed wire museum. :)

Yes... solidifies their place in history. History is filled with all kinds of things that weren't sustainable, including dozens of parks and coasters sprinkled all over Ohio.

In general terms, sure, they've had their cultural impact. But specific rides? You could probably count them on one hand at this point. People think that Gemini is a wood coaster and Goliath is the tallest and fastest in the world. That doesn't instill a lot of confidence that the world at large cares that much.

As I've said before, it were up to me, I just assume that every ride could live forever. I'm just more realistic than that.

"

Cropsey: Is that book Step Right Up, Folks? "

Yes, I'm pretty sure that's the one. I checked it out at the local library in mid 80s, read it cover to cover and loved it. Went to check it out again a few months later and it had been stolen... Thanks for the help with the title millrace!

I found a used copy of that book last year. It's an interesting read (although written in an unusual way that is hard to explain). There are very few enthusiast books from that era.

I think we're all getting a little far from the original discussion or debate or whatever we opt to call it at this point.

Okay, I think we all agree that amusement parks have a place in history. It's just that some of us believe they played a large enough part in history to warrant serious recognition, while others feel people don't care enough about them to make them more than a footnote (funny how this news topic and the coaster museum thread are sort of blending together at this point.) I suppose the only scientific way to prove that is to wait until a coaster museum does open and see how it does- then we'll know for sure if amusement parks mean a lot to people or if they're more of a way to occupy peoples' time. I'm thinking the former.

I'm not going to read anything into the fact that people think Gemini is wood and Goliath is the tallest because people aren't naturally knowledgable when it comes to rides. Most people know that birds have two wings and cars have four wheels but there are a lot of things that play a significant role in peoples' lives and they don't know sh*t about them. Of course I wouldn't expect some casual amusement park guest to know the difference between Gemini and Blue Streak, but I don't think there's an ounce of correlation between lack of knowledge and lack of interest. Most people don't know what kind brand instruments their favorite band plays but that doesn't mean they don't care about their music.

As far as the Starliner goes, who cares if it wasn't the most worthy candidate for preservation? Yeah, it's not the only John Allen wood coaster left and it doesn't have any uber-unique design attributes, but it's a relic from another era and nice to have around in an age when wood coasters are designed to different standards. The park certainly didn't spend more money doing this than building a comparable new wood coaster and now they have a unique way to market the thing, so who really cares if it's not the most noteworthy wood coaster ever built?

*** This post was edited by Rob Ascough 7/27/2007 2:41:31 PM ***

As far as the Starliner goes, who cares if it wasn't the most worthy candidate for preservation?

Rob,

I didn't realize that coaster preservation was suppose to be determined by the popularity of the ride. I hope that everyone here doesn't believe that in order to be historic it has to be popular.

I remember reading, on this board(Not this thread.), someone comments, that they didn't see the purpose of keeping Leap the Dips at Lakemont park. Not those exact words, but very close to it. Talk about ignorance.

Getting back to the Starliner; Hell yeah it's historic, as well as nostalgic. Is it one of PTC's most memorable coasters? Let me answer that with another question; How many other original, more favorable/popular, PTC coasters, that are still operational, can we put ahead of Starliner as of today?*** This post was edited by Coasterphan 7/28/2007 4:40:29 PM ***

Have you actually read all my posts? I've been one of the people saying that popularity does not dictate historical and nostalgic significance.