Starliner gets new life at Cypress Gardens

Would the high cost have anything to do with hiring a new construction company part way through the relocation?

Agent Johnson, Im glad I have a friend like you to put things into perspective for me.

You knowledge is truely appreciated!

So park's marketing department exaggerates the speed when describing the ride. Big deal. A classic woodie has been saved. Perhaps its time for some to stop being so pedantic and look at the bigger picture?

Moosh, I hear you, but you may be off the point here. All new ride openings are hyped up until the finished product is tweaked to the 100% owners want.But, in this industry, longevity and respect and gained by promising good, and delivering great. Example. Univesal Studios promised a high tech dark ride. They delivered Men in Black, probably the best shoot em'up ride in the business.Cypress Gardens would have been better off keeping the 45mph price tag, and then bragging on a followup press release on how they improved the ride, and it runs faster than ever.

Remember, our rule of thumb: Promise this level, deliver 'that' level.
*** This post was edited by Agent Johnson 7/22/2007 11:41:11 PM ***

^^ Thanks Moosh. At least someone gets it.

This isn't about inflated statistics. This isn't about whether $4 million was a ridiculous price for a "used" wood coaster. This is about a coaster being preserved... a fact that I know is lost on many around here, but a fact that resonates with a group of people just as large. Starliner is an example of a ride from a bygone era as well as a relic from an amusement park that is now a footnote in history. That doesn't necessarily make it a better ride, but there's nothing wrong with a ride having a history. I love Gravity Group and GCI coasters but it's nice to know there are wood coasters still out there that are representative of their respective eras. Halo, Grand Theft Auto and Gran Turismo are all great games, but I love video gaming because in addition to those, I can still go back and play the original Sonic the Hedgehog, Metroid and Golden Eye.

And why is it suddenly a crime to lie or or deceive in advertising? It's okay for a park like Cedar Point to take an opinion that is completely subjective- "Cedar Point- It's the Best!"- yet Cypress Gardens claiming their new coaster runs faster than it does is reason to be up in arms? I agree with Agent Johnson- since the park preserved Starliner, they would probably be better served by hyping the ride's history and the changes that were made to make it better, but in the end, what does it matter? A piece of history was preserved and it's now available for anyone to enjoy. How- or why- anyone would want to put a negative spin on that is beyond me. Some people aren't happy unless they're complain about something.

Well let me ask you this then, because we asked this in the podcast... why is it Starliner never came up in conversation until they decided to tear it down? Seriously, I had never even heard of the ride prior to that. Why does the coaster suddenly become more valuable when they decide it's time to tear it down?

I'm not arguing one way or another, I just don't understand it to be anything more than an emotional attachment to things.

Well let me ask you this then, because we asked this in the podcast... why is it Starliner never came up in conversation until they decided to tear it down? Seriously, I had never even heard of the ride prior to that. Why does the coaster suddenly become more valuable when they decide it's time to tear it down?

I'm not arguing one way or another, I just don't understand it to be anything more than an emotional attachment to things.

Just because you didn't hear of the ride prior to it being picked up by Cypress Gardens doesn't mean that it never had any historical significance. I'm not trying to pick a fight, that's simply the way I interpreted your statement.

There are two types of value: Monetary and historical. If you're asking why the Starliner gained monetary value when Miracle Strip closed, there's a simple answer: It didn't. But if you're talking about historical value, that's a whole new issue.

No one was really concerned with the ride's historical value when the ride was at Miracle Strip because there was no reason to believe the ride was in any kind of danger. Most assumed that Miracle Strip and its Starliner would continue to operate indefinitely. But when something of historic note suddenly becomes endangered, it gets a lot of attention and its value increases. People worry about historical stuff a lot more when its future is made questionable, usually appreciating things the most when they're gone.

For what it's worth...
I have never heard anything great about Steal Eal at Sea World in San Antonio, TX. However, I rode it on Saturday and was totally blown away. It is a fantastic ride.

My point: Just because it isn't talked about much or well known, doesn't mean it isn't a great ride.

Now for fun, let me state another "angle"...
On the same trip that I road Steal Eal, I also finally made it to Frontier City to ride Wildcat relocated from the defunct Fairyland Park in Kansas City. I have been excited about this ride since I joined ACE in 1989. Wow, what a lame coaster! Part of it is the ridiculous braking added by the park, but the ride would still mostly suck without the trims. Not sure why this coaster was saved.

OK, so what's the historical significance of Starliner then?

It was constructed by the Philadelphia Toboggan Company, a company that was once the largest supplier of amusement components... and if not the largest, then definitely one of the largest.

It was designed by John Allen, who is credited with the "rebirth" of the wood coaster in the 1970's. Of all the coasters he designed and built. there are only a handful left and even fewer in operation.

It was part of a seaside amusement park- an amusement park genre that is quickly disappearing.

What kind of "historical" significance are you looking for? If you want something technical, I can't help you there... probably because there's nothing for. But something can be historically significant without being the last of its kind of a certain number of years old.

I would call the Starliner nostalgic rather than historical. Cypress Gardens looks like they're marketing it that way too, calling it Florida's Original Scream Machine. They can't compete for spending on new attractions with their neighbors, but the proper campaign for Starliner moves them into a different niche. We can debate endlessly whether it's a good move or not, but the gate over the next couple of years will really answer that question.

You're probably right... historic is probably the wrong word to apply to this. Nostalgic would be more appropriate. Still, the point is the same- Starliner is a ride of significance because of what it was and what it represents, so in the end, it doesn't matter how you refer to it.

Well here's a criteria for you... is it any good? The fact that PTC built it doesn't impress me, and of the five John Allen coasters I've been on, none of them have really jumped out at me as being anything other than average.

There's a lot of hero worship in the enthusiast community that I've never understood, I suppose. It's especially strong and nostalgic for wood coasters, which I also don't understand because, at least in my opinion, I haven't been on many wood coasters I got off of that I was really crazy about other than CCI/TGG or GCI rides. There are a few Miller rides I liked too.

I'm not anti-old stuff, I'm just not pro-old stuff for the sake of them being old. These coasters aren't like carousels, for example, which I believe involve a level of art and craftsmanship that goes far beyond what I feel amounts to wood track on scaffolding.

In fact, that "rebirth," if you can call it that, is exactly what makes it less special. If they cropped up all over the place, and none of them were stand outs, then what historical importance do they really have?

I completely disagree with your claim that wood coasters don't exhibit of a level of artistic flair and craftsmanship like carousels. They may not be as beautiful as a lovingly-carved horse but I truly believe that wood coasters are a significant form of art, whether they be a five-year old GCI or a decades-old Allen, Schmeck, Church or Miller.

The problem, as I see it, is a lack of perspective. You're talking about what Starliner means- or in this case, doesn't mean- to you, Jeff Putz. While I respect your opinion and the opinions of everyone else provided they are based on something, a ride's historical or nostalgic value has nothing to do with how one individual views it. Maybe you didn't get a lot out of the John Allen rides that you've ridden (even though I remember agreeing with you on how well CP's Blue Streak was running a few years back), but there are a lot of people that like John Allen rides. The fact that Starliner isn't a blow-you-away white-knuckle thriller doesn't mean it has no value. For a park like Cypress Gardens that needs a thrilling- but not too thrilling- alternative to its smaller Triple Hurricane, Starliner is probably perfect. I don't see why this could be viewed as a bad business decision. The park could have built a new family coaster from scratch for $4 million. Instead, they took a ride that has a bit of a history behind it and spent $4 million on that. Am I missing something here? Regardless of whether or not you have a respect for history of any kind (I'm guessing you don't, despite your "I'm not anti-old stuff claim), I don't see how this was a bad move.

And so what if there is hero worship among coaster enthusiasts? Sports fans worship pro athletes like Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning. Car afficiandos deeply respect the work of Harley Earl. Video game nuts have a special fondness for Shigeru Miyamoto and Yuji Naka. Architecture fans look up to Frank Lloyd Wright and Frank Gehrey. What makes it wrong for coaster enthusiasts to appreciate the work of John Allen on a level that likely rises above the greatness of all his work? Modern-day baseball players would probably put Babe Ruth to shame, but people don't take that into consideration. And that's perfectly fine.

You answered your own question by not "getting" what people love about wood coasters. You don't get it. And that's fine- I don't get why people like Fergie and Bryan Adams. But that doesn't categorize their fans as a bunch of people who don't know any better.

I think it's as simple as the Starliner has history behind it that can be marketted, where as a new family coaster may be less of a draw without exciting statistics to back it up.

Well here's a criteria for you... is it any good?

First, who defines what "good" is? I have no doubt you can go to Cedar Point and find people who think Mean Streak is good; you can go to Knotts and find people who think Boomerang is good; and you can find people who go to Holiday World and think Voyage isn't good!

IMHO whether the ride is "good" is a moot point. The park has chosen to use the ride's historical significance as part of their marketing but they certainly didn't set a precedent: cases in point Lost Kennywood and Hershey's new Boardwalk.

Second, it doesn't matter if Floridians [or you, or anyone for that matter] knew of the coaster or its historical significance before it came to Cypress Gardens. What matters is that its known now and hopefully that -- along with the exaggerated claim that the ride hits 70MPH -- is enough to get bodies thru the turnstyle. And, taking the other side of the argument for a moment, perhaps the reason for that claim is that the park feels historical significance alone isn't enough. But I digress....

I remember a few years ago when a lot of people in Pittsburgh were up in arms over the removal of one of the downtown sports stadiums. It was scheduled to be torn down so that a newer one could be built. Their argument for keeping it? It had historical significance. Just because I had never heard of the stadium or knew of it's history --heck, I can't even remember the name of the old stadium today! -- didn't make their argument less valid. Nor did it mean the stadium didn't have any historical significance.

Last year in NYC the historic club CBGBs closed. It was the club many, many famous bands including the Talking Heads, B-52's, and the Ramones got their big break. And when it closed many people in NYC and music fans around the world were saddened. It should be saved. Why? Because of it's importance to music history. Wanna bet there are people who have never heard of the club? And does the fact that they've never heard of it diminish it's significance? I'd say no.

And that brings us back to Starliner and your recent awareness of the ride.

Anyway that's just my .02 cents on the matter :)

*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 7/23/2007 9:34:30 PM ***

Damn it Moosh. Here I was, sitting in my lonely corner, rambling ad naseum & speaking in tongues, and you have to come around and back me up while making perfect sense. How dare you make my look the least bit credible? ;)

I did that? Uh oh...lol ;)

If you're done rubbing each other...

See, comparing a coaster to CBGB's seems insane to me. I very obviously recognize the worth of a place like that. I can count the coasters that strike me as that significant on a hand or two. I do see what you're getting at, but I think that's not a good example.

Maybe that's the expectation gap... I don't see roller coasters as particularly relevant in terms of history or culture in the first place. A few, sure, but not many.