Starliner gets new life at Cypress Gardens

Who's talking about "HISTORY" [the big picture] or even culture? CBGBs is relevant to music history. The stadium in Pittsburgh is relevant to sports history. Starliner is relevant to coaster history. It matters not if you've heard of some, all, or none of them.

That is the point I'm trying to make. I would have made it regardless if Rob posted his thoughts. There was no collusion or "Dude, back me up" messages passed back and forth, lol ;)

*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 7/24/2007 12:23:29 AM ***

This is why I find it hard to debate with you, Jeff. Whenever someone supplies an example to back up their original statement, you always have to claim it's either 1. insane; 2. stupid; or 3. ridiculous. Why can't you engage in a debate and actually supply a legitimate counter-argument instead of having to make not-so-subtle digs at the person you're debating with in an attempt to make yourself look better?

Anyway, getting back to what Moosh was saying (and he's right, this isn't some kind of planned attack or anything... nor a passionate display of man-love in a public forum... we do that behind closed doors... usually when my wife's giving me a hard time), it's up to each individual to decide what is important to them. You find CBGB's important to music history, and that's fine- I consider it to be a very significant footnote in the history of music as well. But just because you don't deem amusement parks to be on the same level as music doesn't mean that the Starliner is any less signficant. I don't follow computer programming that you're involved with but I'm sure there are people that have played a significant role in the history of computer programming, and they're going to mean something to people like you, whether I've heard of them or not. Keep in mind there is a world outside your reality, Jeff... just as I admit there is a world outside of my reality.

Perhaps what I'm getting at is that coasters are so relatively unimportant in the anthropological sense that I can't see why it matters that a coaster so few people cared about was "saved." The bigger picture does matter because all things' worth are measured relative to other things. A club like CBGB is something you can see artifacts from at the Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame. Come to think of it, pro sports have halls of fame too.

I live near Chippewa Lake. Do you know how many people who live around here care that the park is, or was, there? Most people haven't even heard of it, and there are actual structures still hanging out there.

Perhaps I'm too average guy to be running a coaster site, but the preservation of amusements just doesn't strike me as particularly "important" in the big picture, thus my general apathy to all things coaster preservationist.

Again, that's your opinion. It's not necessarily the opinion of all people.

I will admit that there are a few things part of moder-day society that are in a class all their own because of their widespread acceptance- sports, movies, cars and music instantly come to mind. I don't think that anyone can dispute the important of any of those things in the history of this country, even if they don't have any appreciation whatsoever for sports, movies, cars and music. But the history of this country is made up of so much more. Drive-in theaters, diners, bed & breakfasts, railroads, battle sites and amusement parks have all worked together to give our country a rich history that consists of a multitude of aspects instead of just a few. If sports, movies, cars and music were all that people ever cared about, American history would seem a lot more one-dimensional.

Honestly, I believe that historically-significant things from those "other" groups are made even more important because they represent things that a small ratio of the population cares about. People know about Lou Gehrig, Humphrey Bogart, the Corvette and the Beatles, but fewer people know about those other things. They need all the attention they can get because they're very much at risk of disappearing. And just because they don't rank with the most well-known aspects of American history doesn't mean they should be ignored. There's room for hunrdeds of professional sports franchises and thousands of minor league sports franchises in this country... certainly there's room for a hundred or so wood coasters, and certainly there's nothing wrong with paying attention to them.

The fact that you're an average guy running a coaster site isn't all that big a deal... what is a big deal is that while you have your own views on preservation and why it doesn't matter to you, you care not to respect the opinions of those that think preservation matters. Personally, I don't care at all about women's volleyball but I'm never going to tell you that it's silly for you to care about.

"The bigger picture does matter because all things' worth are measured relative to other things."

"See, comparing a coaster to CBGB's seems insane to me."

Which is it, Jeff?

"A club like CBGB is something you can see artifacts from at the Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame. Come to think of it, pro sports have halls of fame too."

The Rock-n-Roll Hall of Fame was established in 1983. It wasn't until the museum opened in 1995 that there was a place to see historical artifacts -- unless you count Hard Rock Cafes, lol. So what if CBGBs were to have closed in 1982? Does the fact that a Hall of Fame or museum didn't exist at that time diminish it's importance in music history?

I live near Chippewa Lake. Do you know how many people who live around here care that the park is, or was, there? Most people haven't even heard of it, and there are actual structures still hanging out there.

So only things people know or care about are important? I'm not sure I'm following your logic.

[Edit - I'm off to work, where I have no access to CBuzz.]

*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 7/24/2007 11:59:05 AM ***

Which is it? Those two points reinforce each other. A music club that has influenced pop culture to great lengths is far more important than a coaster most people have never heard of, and has not had significant impact on culture.

The RNRHOFM opening date is irrelevant beyond identifying the medium, music, as having a significant enough impact on culture that someone decided to build a structure to showcase that history for millions of people every year. You can't study anthropology without seeing music and its impact everywhere. You can't say that about roller coasters. That's where I'm coming from regarding its relative importance.

And yes, I am saying that what people know is important in our culture. What's particularly interesting about that is that it all comes back to the business of amusement parks. If something is valuable, then why does it fall to neglect and failure? Ohio used to have dozens of amusement parks. If they were that important, why were they not supported enough, i.e., important enough, to survive?

I'm all for saving whatever is able to be saved. My point is not, and never has been that I'm not OK with that. The point I am making is that things not deemed important in a more universal cultural context will not be preserved just because a small minority of people interested in it want that.

Again, I disagree.

It is true that there is a small correlation between popularity and significance, but popularity is far from being the only thing that defines something's significance in the history of society or American culture. I doubt you're going to find a huge number of people that are into Revolutionary War muskets, but I'm not going to say they aren't a significant part of society and culture. I realize that the comparison of war muskets to roller coasters is the comparison of something necessary (at the time) to something relatively frivilous (at the time), but the belief that amusement parks didn't play an important role in society and culture is just wrong. Back in the days before television, movies, football, hiking and traveling, amusement parks were a major part of the country's entertainment scene. Amusement parks kept Americans occupied.

Many things of value fall into disrepair and altogether disappear and it hardly ever is a reflection of how those things are viewed by the public. Additionally, there are times when people fail to realize the importance of certain things and only see the big picture when it's too late, or almost too late. The going rate for a restored 1970 Chevelle 454SS is close to $100K. That number is artificially inflated by demand to an extent, but that's only because people failed to realize the value of old cars when their numbers were relatively high. Like people junked their old cars without thinking twice, people allowed old amusement parks to get bulldozed.. realizing much later the historical/nostalgic value of those things.

I, for one, am glad that there are so many different types of people with so many interests trying to save things. I can't say that I agree with every single preservation effort but that's only because I never take the time to try and understand what every single group of people sees in the objects of their desires. The point I'm making is that coaster enthusiasts are a small bunch but their desires aren't insignificant because of that. Just because one person- or many people- don't see the allure of something doesn't render any preservation effort unnecessary or fruitless.

Starliner, for WHATEVER it's worth, is (sorta) the oldest operating coaster in Florida. Older than anything at Disney....

Cypress has made every attempt to play that angle *to the hilt* in their marketing effort. Four million, considering the changes made to the layout, seems reasonable to me. Tightened up the structure to fit into the NARROW space, increased the first drop height, increased banking on the turnaround, new lumber, re-engineered, all seems to point to a great ride on a budget.

Was Starliner "famous" around the State? No. Can it be marketed effectively as "Florida's Original Scream Machine"? I think it can...

Agreed, I think it's a great marketing tool.

Monetary value has little correlation to cultural impact. It's a Wonderful Life can be had for $14 on DVD. It's widely regarded as an important movie.

Regardless of what people feel about saving parks or coasters, I give alot of credit to Kent Buescher (sp?).

He came in and saved Cypress Gardens from certain closure, and now has saved Florida's first big time coaster and as Gator said, 4 mill doesn't seem to expensive especially now that the coaster was re-engineered, etc.

This is actually a re-birth to Starliner as now that it's located at a park near Orlando, it will probably see more riders then it has in its history up in Panama Beach.

Not all coasters are worth saving. I do feel this one was warranted to save.

Right. Hercules wasn't worth saving. Pysclone wasn't worth saving. Perhaps it's because those coasters weren't that old, or perhaps it's because the coaster enthusiast community (like it or not, they are the ones that ultimately put a value on a ride, just as car enthusiasts are the ones to put a value on classic cars) didn't feel that Summers/Dinn coasters aren't good enough to warrant all that much attention. Obviously I agree with Chitown- this ride, for numerous reasons, was worth saving. I don't understand why it was a bad move, or a move that could have better been accomplished by doing something else.

And who said that there is a correlation between monetary value and cultural value?

You did: "The going rate for a restored 1970 Chevelle 454SS is close to $100K." If that wasn't your point, why bring up the dollar amount?

You're getting it backwards. A Chevelle isn't "historic" because it's worth $100K- a Chevelle is worth $100K because it's historic. There's a big difference. Plain and simple understanding of supply and demand will explain why values of certain things go up because they're rare and not because they're culturally significant.

So then if a coaster gets torn down and it's not worth anything, it's not historic?

Who said that? I know that I didn't. If a coaster gets torn down, it ceases to be historic because it ceases to be, period. That doesn't mean it didn't have any historic/nostalgic value before it was torn down.

Suppose a really old colonial house in your neighborhood gets torn down to make way for a new housing development. Do you really think that because the house was torn down, it never had any kind of value whatsoever to begin with?

Whether it's a dollar value or demand, you made the connection that historic things are valuable, and therefore preserved. So I'm just asking then, if they aren't preserved, they're not valuable, right?

What kind of value are you talking about? It sounds like you're assuming monetary value and nostalgic value are the same thing. They're not.

Considering how much it would cost to revitalize a dormant wood coaster, I'm going to assume the thing is worth practically nothing if you're talking dollars. But just because something isn't worth money doesn't mean it doesn't have nostalgic value. There are some things that can't be tagged with an actual price. I don't see why this is so complicated.

Then why bring up demand and monetary value at all? You're proving my point that nostalgia by itself is not enough to preserve anything.

Are you actually interested in trying to understand this? Or perhaps I'm speaking in tongues?

When examples of a certain thing disappear, they become more valuable, whether you're talking monetary value or nostalgic value. Suppose there were once 500 Putz's Burger Shacks throughout the country, but over the years most got replaced by new development. That might not make one of the last few remaining worth anything in dollars but people are sure as hell going to assign more nostalgic value to those few than they did when a few hundred still existed. Rarity increases something's value... sometimes monetary, sometimes nostalgic, sometimes both. I don't think that at all proves that nostalgia, by itself, doesn't warrant preservation.

Yes, you're speaking in tongues.

When certain things disappear, they do not become more valuable. Where's the value in a Yugo? I have a lot of old things that have no value to anyone but me. Again, you keep going down the road of my opinion versus yours, but intrinsic value in a cultural context doesn't come down to me or you. Only the aggregate can really determine a more universal answer on whether or not something has value. If not enough people care, then things go away, so the cultural value is not there.

And then there's the economic impact, the business case, for whether or not even something valuable can be maintained. Aside from my comments about the artistic value, a carousel is a relatively small, self-contained, and more easily moved object compared to coasters. At least around here, you can't throw a stone without finding a "saved" or "preserved" carousel. Can't say the same about roller coasters.

And duh, I don't eat beef. :)