Single Riders, Poaching, Park Rules, Ethics, and a side of fries

RavenTTD said: "It's against the rules."

Don't get me wrong, I see you point and, in fact, I agree with you. I also happen to agree with myself. Which is why I made this topic. I'm so confused. :( ;)

It makes NO sense to me to wait for an hr. in line to see a half full train dispatch. I would have no problem with everyone else poaching and filling trains if they all did it the "right" way and were civil about it. Hell, I'd probably congratulate people for thinking about capacity for a change.

I've given up my poach seat for other poachers many times in the past. I've also been knocked over by other people poaching past me.

The bottom line is that I really don't care very much about getting back on the ride 99% of the time, but if the seat's there and it's empty, I'll take it. My actions aren't hurting anybody. My example may be a bad example, which is why I hesistate to poach as much as I could, but my actions do not directly negatively affect others.

I've asked ops before in crowded situations and not crowded situations and I've not asked ops in crowded situations and not crowded situations. It's entered the picture in my decision making, but never been the deciding factor.

And in reference to your driving on the shoulder example - Yeah, I'd drive on the shoulder if my wife were in labor and in the back of the car. Or if I were shot. Or if I were bleeding profusely from the ear. That's what it's there for. Driving in the shoulder when there isn't an emergency causes problems because it blocks the shoulder for those who do have emergencies. But even if I knew there wasn't someone coming, I still wouldn't do it. Why? I don't know. Maybe cuz my mom told me not to, but never told me not to poach.

Just a parting thought:
If you've ever raised your hands on a ride (yes, in reference to keep you hands inside the car at all times), ever jumped or ducked a hand rail, ever row poached, ever re-ridden a ride, or ever kept loose articles (including hats, keys, glasses, wallets, cell phones, or pagers) on your person during a ride, then you and I are not so different.

*** Edited 8/10/2004 12:04:23 AM UTC by ApolloAndy*** *** Edited 8/10/2004 12:22:54 AM UTC by ApolloAndy***

I did not say that I never violate park rules. I just don't understand why you are so rigid enforcing park rules yourself if you don't follow them all. There are very few rules that are supposed to be absolute. The public would not tolerate it if there were speed traps everywhere 24/7. We are taught that rules are absolute to condition people to comply, but in reality, there is leeway and common sense in most cases. Personally, I don't care if you poach when it is clear the seats will not be filled. However, if you ask a kid if you can ride with him, and he says no, let that one go too. If you MUST be so legalistic, then be consistent.

Uh, since when are you not allowed to put your hands up? Look at any rollercoaster show on tv. Hell, I've seen people who work at Cedar Point before put there hands up on rides, even Dick Kinzel has done it before, I'm sure.

I don't understand how that is against park rules at all. The park knows people will do it, so, unless you have 10 foot arms, the park makes the ride expecting at least 1 person will put their hands up on it sometime. I don't know that for a fact, I just know it as common sense. :)

The *fact* is that the rules state that riders must keep arms and legs in the cars at all times. CP has now removed all publicity materials in which riders have their arms up.

Now which rules are "common sense breakable" and which are not is the point that RavenTTD and I are "discussing".

RavenTTD - Surely if you waited an hr. for a ride, then everyone in line decided to cut you, you'd do something to enforce the no line cutting policy, right? You wouldn't just say "Well, I'm not going to be legalistic because rules were made to broken." Would you?

*** Edited 8/10/2004 5:30:20 AM UTC by ApolloAndy*** *** Edited 8/10/2004 5:34:24 AM UTC by ApolloAndy***

Yes, I noticed that on my Geauga Lake brochure that just came in the mail. No one on X-Flight has their hands out, everyone is holding on. Even if we start taking a stand as enthusiasts and stop raising our hands, the GP probalby won't stop. Its ingrained in their minds to do that.

I won't raise my hands when I'm launching, and most launch coasters ask that you not. But on FoF @ PKD 2 years ago, the ride Ops made sure to say "Keep hands down until after the launch, or else the ride will put them down for you".

Here's my take.

The general flow of things on a standard day at the average park is one ride per wait in line.

Common courtesy dictates that everyone who waits in line gets one ride on the coaster once they reach the station.

No, it doesn't hurt anyone either way, but being unfair rarely 'hurts' anyone beyond feelings.

Should I get less rides per wait than you because I'm with a group of 4 and you're a single rider? If a park is cool with running things that way, then there's usually a set-up for poaching...it's called a single rider line. That's all a single rider line is - oraginized poaching. And even then you still only get one ride per wait.

Or even single rider vs single rider. What if you're a few trains ahead of me and after your ride the opportunity to poach arises and you snag it. You got two rides for one wait. But when my ride is over, the next train fills so I only get one ride for one wait.

Heck, if you were on the train in front of me and tried to poach next to me, I'd call you out on it. You waited, you rode. You want to ride again, you wait again.

It should be equal investment (time waiting in line) and equal payoff (a ride) for everyone.

Reducing the investment for equal payoff can come in many forms - poaching, line cutting, virtual queue systems, etc. That's exactly why it feels so gray. We're all certainly against line cutting. Why? Because you should have to put up equal investment for the payoff. I'd be against poaching. Why? I think it should be equal payoff for the investment. Virtual Queues are one of the hottest enthusiast debates. I'm ok with it. Why? The money you drop compensates for the part of the investment (time in line) you no longer offer for the same payoff. (in other words you're putting in money rather than time for the ride) It's also exactly why I feel the "first come, first serve virtual queue systems can actually feel less fair. It's more like a lottery. The 'lucky' get the same payoff for less investment with no basis for who gets this privledge other than random handouts.

But that's a whole different debate.

I think the heart of the poaching thing is not about breaking a rule, it's about being fair. :)

What if I show up on a day when it happens to be more crowded? Same investment (i.e. driving to the park, buying the ticket) many less rides. Is that unfair?

Is the single rider line unfair? As you mention, it's less investment for the same payoff.

What about the preferred row swap? That's unequal investment for same payoff.

I guess I feel like there's a large difference between active line cutting and poaching. Granted, poaching creates inequality in investment->payoff but it's increasing the overall enjoyment, specifically without encroaching on anyone else's enjoyment. (I get more, no one else gets less). Cutting and virtual queueing decreases total enjoyment. Same or less number of rides and the negative value of disrespect.

I guess that's the "answer" to my original story. Am I increasing or decreasing the overall enjoyment. I'm making a kid feel really bad, but I'm saving everyone who wants to ride in the front for the entire rest of the day 3 minutes or so.

Wait a sec. Are we defining poaching as "still waiting in line, seeing an open single seat and slipping on early" or "just rode and when getting off, see an empty seat and slipping on again" - because there's a big difference between the two.

As I said above, never poached unless it is "operator sanctioned poaching" ("you may ride again if..."). Anything else (such as waiting around to see what seats may or may not be empty) just leads inevitably to confusion and, in my opinion, should not be done.

Now I will admit that I have stepped in front of people to fill in an empty single seat... but ONLY with their blessing. Happens on the 4 across B&M's the most... 2 people seated and 2 empty seats, a group of 3 is waiting, I am after them... Yeah, I will ASK politely if they mind if I jump ahead of them in this situation. No problem with that. What I find is that many people will do the math before it is time to load. They see that the group in front of them will leave less empty seats than in their group, so they will look around for "single riders" or "two riders" depending on the situaion. No problem with.

I have also seen people realize there is an empty seat on the train and ask to have the gates opened so they can ride. Sometimes this even works and the ops allow it. To me, this is stupid. Sure, you could send out a fully loaded train... but there is a point where wasting time trying to fill a train to 100% actually slows down the whole process. Opening up the gates after they have been closed to me is one of these situations.

I tend to agree entirely with SLFAKE's post.

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What I find is that many people will do the math before it is time to load. They see that the group in front of them will leave less empty seats than in their group, so they will look around for "single riders" or "two riders" depending on the situaion.

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Exactly. I've never been to a park where the guests didn't self-regulate in this way. This happens to (and around me) all the time. This is just common sense.

However, I assumed Andy meant poaching as in he's already ridden, takes it slow leaving the ride, spots an empty seat and hops back on. That's the mindset where my previous post came from.

That is what I meant.

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SLFAKE said:

I have also seen people realize there is an empty seat on the train and ask to have the gates opened so they can ride. Sometimes this even works and the ops allow it. To me, this is stupid. Sure, you could send out a fully loaded train... but there is a point where wasting time trying to fill a train to 100% actually slows down the whole process. Opening up the gates after they have been closed to me is one of these situations.

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Obviously this depends on the size of the train, the number of riders filling in, the speed of dispatches and the cost of re-opening that gates. On V2.1, the ops and process as a whole are so slow that there could be mass confusion in the back of the train for a full minute or two and it wouldn't affect the interval. Simiarly, on a ride like H:XLC where you're running 8 people at a time, it's probably a good idea to fill the train everytime. Even if it means re-opening the gates.

I understand where you are comming from ApolloAndy but I would have just let the kid have his ride. Maybe it was some sort of accomplishment he wanted to make or something. I am a single ride a lot of times when I visit parks and I always ask if it is OK if I ride with another single(or 3 on a B&M). I have never been turned down, but would not be upset if someone did.

As for line jumping, I always block them when I can and I try to report them to ride ops if they jump in front of others. I also report those taking pictures on rides where it is forbiden.

As for seat poaching/sniping, I have only done it a few times and only with the other riders OK.

I'm frequently a single rider at SFGAm as my family doesn't share the same passion for coasters that I do.

If there are long lines I always try to pair up with someone. Most of the time people are willing to do so but you do occasionally find someone that for whatever reason thinks they should ride alone.

I'd like to see the parks try to pair up more riders but they seem to have less staff available for station management these days.

Yes, I would not let people cut in front of me, at least not at first. I gave some examples of that earlier. That is not the same as insisting on riding with a child who says no. I have encounted that situation and I don't even let it bother me.

How is it different? Both are against park rules and both are disrespectful to the other guests.

That is the common sense and leeway I was talking about. Waiting for the next train when a child is not comfortable riding with strangers is not the same as normal line jumping. Poaching is not the same as joining a party in line. Joining a party in line is not as bad is just cutting to the front with no party waiting. You need to use common sense in what to let go and what to stand up to and how far to take it. Even the parks don't want to enforce all rules at all times. Some are just there to enforce when they want to.

Different people have different ideas about what is and isn't common sense. Just because it's common sense to you, doesn't mean everyone agrees with you (as illustrated by this topic and others on poaching).

Point being, you've still said all these things are different, but you haven't presented a good reason why. I agree that, among that list of things, I think some are okay and others aren't and some should be enforced by the park and/or by guests and others shouldn't. I just happen to have a different list than you do and I don't claim that my list is the right one. But at least I can present and articulate the reasoning behind the distinctions in my list. So far I haven't seen yours...and common sense isn't a good enough reason, unfortunately. *** Edited 8/11/2004 1:46:00 AM UTC by ApolloAndy***

The single rider thing is not that big a deal with me since that rule is not often enforced, but that is not my real problem on this thread. You really need to leave other people's kids alone. Ask them once, and then let it go. If you don't want to, get a ride op. It is not appropriate to correct kids that are not yours to the point where you follow them back and forth while they try to avoid you. That is not even a gray issue for me. I am not sure why you think that is okay, but if that kids dad saw you doing that, he might be able to explain it to you better.

What if the kid were cutting? Could I correct him then? What if I blocked the path and he continued to try to get around me?