Single Riders, Poaching, Park Rules, Ethics, and a side of fries
ApolloAndy said:
The right way is to watch the gates when they open, look for a single rider. Wait for everyone to put their stuff down and return to the train. Then, once you're sure no one is sitting there, hop in the seat, ask the other person if anyone is riding there and wait for the attendant to come before locking yourself in. The worst that happens is someone comes, you get up and are on your way.
This is the way we have poached WT at CP, as well as Face-Off (PKI), and V2 and BM at SFGAm. It is really tricky during the summer though with everyone dropping off their flip-flops. Again, if I am not inconviencing anyone, I would try it. And if I'm caught, it's my shame that shows, and not any anger to the ops or other peeps.
if a park states clearly in their rules for the ride that single riders will be paired up then there is no problem asking a single rider if you may ride with them. if their response is no then i feel that it would be my duty to report that to a ride operator on duty.
people do not have the choice of whether or not they want to ride as a single.
when you buy a single coach plane ticket do you get the choice of whether or not you want to sit by a stranger? it's the same way on a coaster. if the rules are clearly stated then trying to be a single rider not only breaks rules but is extremely selfish to other park patrons.
The Shy One said:
I personally have never really thought or cared too much about single riders and filling trains completely (maybe it's because I don't work at a park and it's never been my responisblity to deal with it). In fact, I've actually turned down the opportunity to fill a seat because I wanted to ride by myself (the person riding asked, not the ops).
Keep this in mind though, Shy One, if you ever get grumpy about the length of lines for your favorite rides. If we all have the mentality that we want to ride alone (like on a B&M 4 seat across ride), then a wait time for a ride will increase three-fold. Even on a 2 seat across, you have doubled your wait time and the wait time of everyone behind you. Perhaps the next person in line does/did not mind, but ever other person waiting behind that person is now waiting for an extra train. And if there are several in your line that have the same mentality as you, a 15 minute wait for a ride can turn into an hour.
I do believe that it's the parks' ultimate responsiblity to fill in seats. And if the park will not do it, I typically will. I want to get on a ride in a reasonable amount of time.
I am not a "shy one" and if two young boys get into a 4 across ride, and the two seats in the middle are open, my husband and I will wil sit with them, to their own chagrin. And instead of only one boy having to sit next to a "stranger", now they both have to.
When I am on a ride, the only thing I can think of at that point in time is the ride itself (and not who is sitting next to me). BTW, I have not had the displeasure of riding with a stinky rider.
The only ride i know you should keep your hands down on is TTD. Yes on my only ride on it i did put my arm up after the tree changed to yellow but i found out why they tell you arms down. Once that bad boy launches your arms will be behind your head until you get up the incline and slow down a little.
Line jumping is a bit different. When people ask to get by me, I say no. If they ask why, I say it is against park policy and I don't want them cutting in front of me. There were 4 times I can remember when they insisted, and I finally let them past. It is one thing to refuse, but the use of force goes too far. At WoF, one time I told the ride op and the person was ejected from the line. Also at WoF, I told the ride op and he did nothing. I filed a complaint with guest services. At SFGAd, I did not tell anyone because no one was available. At PKI, the man started making a big deal about it and went off the handle trying to play a race card. The situation was too intense, so I decided to let it go.
Poaching is line jumping if you don't get permission. Think of it this way. Someone gets in front of you in line, but you make the same train. They did not make you wait any longer, but they still cut. Especially if there are not enough seats for everyone getting off to ride again, what makes you think that you deserve 2 for 1? I can't believe someone would go to so much trouble to enforce a single rider rule and then try to get 2 rides like that. Single rider rule signs are there so the ride ops have some authority when they decide to enforce it. They are not there for enthusiasts to assert their will over other guests. *** Edited 8/9/2004 1:05:29 AM UTC by RavenTTD***
ApolloAndy said:
Maybe the boy had some kind of condition that would prevent him from riding with someone else?
It's called excessive rudeness....don't worry Andy, it's not *contagious*, although it DOES seem to be an epidemic....;)
You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)
-- alan j.
RavenTTD said:Poaching is line jumping if you don't get permission. Think of it this way. Someone gets in front of you in line, but you make the same train. They did not make you wait any longer, but they still cut. Especially if there are not enough seats for everyone getting off to ride again, what makes you think that you deserve 2 for 1? I can't believe someone would go to so much trouble to enforce a single rider rule and then try to get 2 rides like that. Single rider rule signs are there so the ride ops have some authority when they decide to enforce it. They are not there for enthusiasts to assert their will over other guests.
The difference is that poaching, when done the right way, doesn't negatively affect anyone at all. Cutting, even it's not in front of me, still negatively affects other guests or at least demonstrates a lack of respect for other guests. As shown in my story, I don't really care wheter it's me being crapped on, or someone else being crapped on. If you're crapping on someone, I have a problem with you. Of course, I'm entering the vast expanse of gray area, but don't assume I haven't thought long and hard about this.
More importantly, the reason I made the topic wasn't to justify my response or my poaching. It was to get input from other mature, reasonable people to see whether I agree with my own response and poaching.
*** Edited 8/9/2004 3:46:49 AM UTC by ApolloAndy***
Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."
When it comes to a contract, if you are under 18 and agree to a contract, you can get out of it because you are a minor. No matter what.
But Policy Park rules, and laws are different. Just because you are young dosen't mean you aren't subject to park rules. If the kid has a problem, maybe he should be there with a friend or relative. The whole argument about "its a kid, and they dont' want to deal with strangers" dosen't apply here, mainly because the parents are letting him deal with strangers the second he gets in line by himself. Whether they know it or not, just because they tell the kid not to ride with strangers at a park dosen't mean it won't happen. Park Policy on Park Property is the law of the land in this case.
I would have done the same thing, Andy, and not cared one bit if the kid got miffed.
Kyle Says: Diamondback was a lot of fun! Made his first time at Kings Island worth it all!
The point is, however, if a child is 8 years old and a parent dosen't want them riding with strangers, than they have to be a parent. You can't expect someone else to do it for you. Ride Ops are not parents, they are there to do a job. Most GP, I'd say, have seen signs saying that single riders may be paired up. Every park I've ever been to has had signs like that. Its what happens. But in the end, the parent should be the one riding with their kid if they don't want anybody else to, thats just common sense.
If there are signs or other written park policies stating single riders will be paired up, then enforce it, especially on coasters or other high demand or low capacity rides IF enforcing the rule will not as a result slow down the loading times. I do not see this as something the guest should have to do, it is the ops' responsibility. BUT i see nothing wrong with a guest who is next in line filling a seat in the same row if this is the park policy.
I spend alot of time running a ride that has a 2 person cap. per car -enterprise- with a sign stating "2 riders per gondola". Unfortunately enforcing the rule on this ride is next to impossible as some guest, because of size, be it height, weight, or other reason cannot fit 2 per car. Because of this you have to guess where a group breaks( from experience and other guesses) and guess if they are going to pair up or not and only allow slightly more than half capacity to enter the ride, then fill remaining seats. (a real capacity/load time killer).
Sometimes it is quicker to run a cycle with a couple of empty seat than to fill all of the seats. That cycles capacity is deminished, but the time savings over the coarse of an hour may allow 2 more cylces, negating the 3 empty seats you ran.
As far as line jumping, every park I have ever been to forbids it(get out of line, go to the rear) I will do ever thing short of causing a physical confrontation. ( Dont make me pull my employee ID ;) )
Poaching- shouldnt ever happen- doesnt mean I havent thought about it.
Sitting on hand rails/ fences, MY PET PEEVE. Watched a mid 20's man, not more than 5 seconds after being told NOT to set on the hand rails, fall backwards onto a 4 year old ruining an other wise pleasant day for that family.
Stepping off soapbox,
Angnjc (the J.C. half)
Just a couple of G-Force junkies!
Plus, you shouldn't be worried about a 1 train wait. If I waited an hour for a coaster, i'd be so excited that I wouldn't let one more train bring me down, I'd just let the people give in and just wait it out. If a kid wants to ride by themselves then you should respect their feelings as long as they ahve a good reason. It is simple courtesy to allow the 8 year old to ride by themselves. I honestly think that a rideop will probably take the side of the 8 year old and let them ride by themselves so that little kid doesn't throw a temper tantrum.
Oh, and its not the parents responsibility to ride with the child, because what if they have a heart disease or they are pregnant? Then if they did ride with the child they would be endangering themselves, and breaking a park rule.
Kyle Says: Diamondback was a lot of fun! Made his first time at Kings Island worth it all!
It's a parent's responsibility to know thier kids are safe, no matter what. If a kid is afraid to ride a roller coaster with a stranger because their parents told them that it's not safe, why aren't the parents there making sure their kid is safe?
Andy-
I do have to, in all honesty, say that insisting to ride with the kid sounds a little bit creepy. Eight years old is kind of young and the world can seem really scary. (That raises a question about why the kid was even alone in the line to begin with... but that's another thread) If the kid was freaked out by you riding with him, or otherwise insisting that you not ride with him... that's understandable.
Had it been an 18 year old kid insisting that you not ride with him, then I'd see it okay to cause a fuss.
On the topic of poaching-
Personally, I see nothing wrong with it if the park and the ride ops don't see anything wrong with it either. Poaching on Raven at HW on a slow day is awesome. In fact, the crew sometimes encourages it.
It's all sort of the "When in Rome do as the Romans do" thing. If the park says "no" don't do it.
*** Edited 8/9/2004 7:17:45 AM UTC by Michael Darling***
If I had an 8 year old kid that wanted to ride a coaster and I didn't want to/couldn't then I would as a responsible parent, make arrangements for the kid to ride the ride. If we think things thru, A kid is probably very unlikely to be molested/abused by someone on a rollercoaster (unless its an arrow or veko and you blame the designers;). j/k)
If a Kid is 8 years old, that to me is FAR too young to be standing in line and out of sight of a parent. That is the first irresponsible thing the parent did. But We're not talking about wheather I as a parent would make the kid ride by his/her self. If I, as a parent, let the kid get on a ride by themself, then it is my responsibility to look at the posted ride policy. If it says that my single rider kid may be paired with a stranger, then maybe me, as a responsible adult, should be telling my kid that, and see if they still want to ride. If they do want to ride, its MY responsibility to make sure they understand that they could ride with someone else.
Now on to the one train wait. Remember, the wait may have been an hour because ride ops weren't paying attention to people who are singles and riding by themselves. A ride Ops job is to operate a ride the most efficient way possible. That includes pairing up singles. The kid should have been made to understand that they may have to ride with someone else in the first place, but since their parent/guardian didn't do that, the ride op should have. It is their job as a ride op to make sure things are efficient. You may not care about that one train, but I, waiting in line a half hour behind you might. I paid to have the same experiance as the kid (and depending on the park, I may have paid more than the kid for the same exp.), so why is it fair to let all the single kids in front of me ride alone when it would be faster to let them ride with other singles.
As far as respecting other people's feelings in the matter, why should my feelings be disrespected because someone else wants to be selfish? If the kid had some disorder, then they should have went to guest relations and talked to them. Maybe the park would give the kid handicapped status and let them walk up the exit to board the ride and ride by themself. I would totally understand this and approve. But that wasn't the case with Andy's incident.
And in all honesty, I doubt a ride op would "side with the child" in that instance. If the ride op was doing their job, they would explain things to the kid since the kids parent didn't and go from there.
You are right that a parent with a certain condition preventing them from riding should not ride. Thats not what I was saying in my earlier post. However, it is the responsiblity of the parent to be just that, a Parent. If they can't ride and they don't want their kid riding with a stranger, or they know their kid dosen't want to ride with a stranger, then it IS their responsibility to provide someone for the kid to ride with that they are comfortable with.
Its called being a responsible adult. Look at the news section to see what happens when kids get left alone at parks.
ApolloAndy said:
The difference is that poaching, when done the right way, doesn't negatively affect anyone at all.
Holding a camera on a ride, when done the right way, doesn't negatively affect anyone at all.
The other issue is that everyone has to wait for their seats. There are not enough seats for everyone to re-ride and so people exit. (Usually if there were enough, you could get permission.) It is like driving on the shoulder in a traffic jam. It does not hurt anyone, but it gives you an advantage that no one else gets, and if everyone tried, it would not work. It is also against the rules. What should happen is ride ops should look for a single rider in the line to get that seat. When you are on that side of the line, that is the opinion you have. When you are on the other side of the line, you see open seats as freebies. I still say it is silly to take such a hard line stance on moving the line as quickly as possible that you force some kid to ride with you that does not want to, and then you don't leave seats open so ride ops can fill them if they so choose. Besides, what is so bad with asking permission? If you can't get it, you are line jumping. I think you know that which is why you don't ask.
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