Shapiro at it again?
However, my experiences waiting in long queue lines changed my mind. There was one day at a Six Flags park where in the space of three hours I had people in the queue line blow cigarette smoke in my face (even after I asked them to stop and despite the fact that it is not allowed), drop beer on top of me, shove me aside as they cut in line, curse loudly even with small children nearby, and actually laugh and make fun of the fact that I was limping due to a recent foot injury. Basically, the unruly teens were simply unbearable to be around. These were not one-time events. They happened all day and quite consistently.
So I broke down and purchased a Q-bot. Suddenly, I no longer had to endure these idiots in line. My day improved exponentially and I did not feel the least bit guilty anymore.
THAT is why I indulge and get the Flashpass. When I am at Busch Gardens or Cedar Point, I do not mind standing in the regular lines because the people usually act pretty decently. But at the Six Flags parks (and sadly at some Paramount parks too), the abuse I endure in the lines are not worth it. If I can do something to remove myself from that, I will do so. I do not use Flashpass just to fit in more rides or to cheat others out of their experiences. (I do NOT mind waiting for my turn if the waiting experience is pleasant or at least okay.) I use it for my own sanity and to avoid the huge number of rude people who are often at these parks.
If Six Flags ever stops being a baby sitter or improves the quality of the people that come in the gates, then I will once again reconsider my decision.... *** Edited 1/26/2007 8:56:50 AM UTC by Mikewhy*** *** Edited 1/26/2007 8:59:20 AM UTC by Mikewhy***
"They would get more profit because .... more people in their gates equals more people spending money inside the park."
You don't get the concept of diminishing returns, do you? More customers != More profit. It can help, but it can also hurt. The goal of a business is to make as much money as possible. It is NOT to have as many customers as possible. It is NOT to have the most sales as possible. It is NOT, believe it or not, to have as much revenue as possible.
If I sell you something for the same price I paid for it, even if I sold one billion of them, I would not have made ANY profit. In fact, I'm actually losing on the deal because of the work I had to put in the actual purchase/sale of it.
If you have to ask the question "Are you going to say six flags does not want me in their park?" then the answer is an unhesitating "YES!" -- You're obviously not spending any/much money, and you're making the line that much longer from people who ARE paying for stuff in the park.
How many times do I, or Gonch, or anybody else that can see things from a more-than-a-selfish-enthusiast perspective have to say it? They don't want your money. They want money. If you are willing to give it to them, fine. If not, there are millions of others who will.
dexter said:
I assume that that was directed at me. Why the hostility, 2Hostyl? Are you implying that I am a hypocrite? Do YOU feel so strongly about the topic that YOU argue with people YOU don't even know just so that YOUR frustrations are well documented? Isn't THAT hypocritical?
Actually, I was thinking of an amalgamation of several posts on the boards, yours, rablat, nameless-faceless-others-that-I-cant-remember, etc.. But since you want to feel it's directed solely at you, that works too.
2Hostyl being too hostile, who ever saw that coming?
I dont need to call anyone a hypocrite. Our actions clearly define if we are being hypocritical or not so there's no need for me to state it. The point I failed to make as bright as a "South of the Border" billboard was that even people who are vehemently against SFI and their operating practices, as you clearly are, *still* go to the parks and buy their 'overpriced scam crap'. If those who venomously oppose SFI still support SFI *despite* loathing their practices, what reason is there to believe that someone who has a neutral or better attitude towards SFI is now suddenly going to stop going?
Now since you asked me some direct questions, I'll try best to answer them.
You are going to tell me that if they simply ran their rides at capacity, charged what every other park that size charges (or less), had good food, and treated the customer like they were the most important reason the business exists, that they wouldn't be more profitable?
As stated numerous times above, this is unknown. It may indeed be more profitable to cut some corners and charge more. Perhaps it's not needed to make the guests feel like "Queen for a day" but rather just 'good enough'. Plenty of people attend these parks as is.
You're telling me that SF *doesn't* wish that I would come through their gates instead?
Only if your going to spend money while you're there and not tailgate in the parking lot. ;)
Are you suggesting that I am being hypocritical because even though I speak out against their service and value, I still visit them, although very rarely?
I need suggest nothing, your own words betray you.
I am a coaster enthusiast, remember? I have to go a few times a decade to get the coaster credits. They build some nice coasters. Trouble is that it is a very huge inconvenience to get to ride them. I do what I have to do to get the credits.
And this is the crux of the whole thread in a nutshell. People go to the parks because they like to ride the rides. If they want to ride the rides, they suffer whatever 'inconviences' may or may not exist. "The lines are long"? Well, I'll wait or buy a Flash Pass because I want to ride! "The park is dirty" Well I'll just step over the trash because I want to ride! "I cant go back to the car?" Well I'll just do without or carry a backpack because I want to ride!
You personally are pissed off about the stuff you have to suffer through to ride...yet you still got to ride, whether that makes you a hypocrite or not is immaterial. But was it does say is that even the most allienated guests will still return. Someone like me, who is not in the least bothered by these changes, will return. At worst, they lose a little business on the margin, but are able to jack up prices on the masses (self included). The gamble is that they can more than make up for your loss on the rest of us.
Not that they are too worried about you because you'll be back anyway. Pissed off or not. :)
And the first question which I'll answer last:
Do YOU feel so strongly about the topic that YOU argue with people YOU don't even know just so that YOUR frustrations are well documented? Isn't THAT hypocritical?
I *am* a hypocrite. And will never claim that I'm not. I'm also unnecessarily argumentative. My nickname (2Hostyl --> too hostile) belies that. But my intention was not to name call but rather to present 'evidence' for why I dont believe that such a change in policy as "no re-entry" would significantly hurt SFI's business. I'm just saying (again) that people who are mad at them (like yourself) will still visit. People who arent mad at them (like me) will still visit. Only those extremely pissed off (beyond even where you are) or extraordinarily principled (like those who boycott Wal-Mart) will completely withold business.
I submit that those people are few and far between and thus "statisically insignificant"!
lata, jeremy
---apologies for the length
Mikewhy said:
However, my experiences waiting in long queue lines changed my mind.(SNIP)
Basically, the unruly teens were simply unbearable to be around. These were not one-time events. They happened all day and quite consistently.(SNIP)
THAT is why I indulge and get the Flashpass. When I am at Busch Gardens or Cedar Point, I do not mind standing in the regular lines because the people usually act pretty decently. But at the Six Flags parks (and sadly at some Paramount parks too), the abuse I endure in the lines are not worth it.
(SNIP)If Six Flags ever stops being a baby sitter or improves the quality of the people that come in the gates, then I will once again reconsider my decision.
First off, let me state my disdain for the "Babysitting service" bit (not necessarily directed at you Mike). There seems to be this idea that SFI is a drop off point only because the passes are cheaper than say CP passes. Though I'd argue that even at the price of a CP pass, you'd still get that type of crowd because passes in general are cheap compared to other forms of entertainment.
Actually, perhaps someone from the Cleveland area could tell if the crowds changed once CF bought the places and partically doubled the season pass price. Or are there still roving gangs of unruly unsupervised teens?
Specifically to you Mikewhy, I think the reason you (we) dont see much of that type of stuff at other parks like BGE, CP, Hershey, etc. is just that these parks are harder to get to as an unsupervised teen. I mean, @ SFA, you can take public transportaion there so anyone with busfare can get there. But Hershey is far enough removed that most people that visit there go as a family or some organized group.
I really believe that the accessibility is one factor that gives rise to potential for bad behavior. The other is the marketing. As a teen, I was tons more excited to go to Great America than to Kiddieland or Santa's Villiage, because I felt GAm was more targeted to me. I guess Sny-piro are attempting to downplay this angle so that it looks less like a teen club and more "Disney".
So if things work out, you'll (hopefully) find the lines more hospitiable. But I'll still be zipping thru the Flash Pass line :)
lata, jeremy
2Hostyl said:
I mean, @ SFA, you can take public transportaion there so anyone with busfare can get there. But Hershey is far enough removed that most people that visit there go as a family or some organized group.
This has long been thought to be at least one of the reasons why Kennywood DOESN'T offer season passes -- Pittsburgh bus service has multiple routes stop there (even after the cutbacks, apparently ;) )
--Greg
"You seem healthy. So much for voodoo."
Here's my two cents on the whole rant. Everyone has those complaints about Six Flags. The more people through the gates yields more money is most likely flawed. I say this due to the reasons pointed out above and also follow the next bit of logic using Great Adventure (my most familiar SF park) as an example.
You fix operations and the line for El Toro drops from 2 hours to 1 hour so now more people enter the park and the line starts to creep back towards two hours as the number of people in the park grows. By the way it may not require 2 times the amount of people through the gates to get the line back up to the two hour point. Plus if you follow the same logic at Great Adventure would you really want that many more people through the gates? Midways can get very crowded there already so now you want more people in the park? The idea is to maximize the profit from the people in your park.
This comes down to a Economics lesson that I am not even thinking of trying to put into words as it would probably be some BORING stuff and would most likely get dismissed with the normal complaints that SF's operations lead to the issues like most of the posts that try to go down that road.
Would I like better operations, cheaper and better quality food? YES!!!! Which is why my SF season pass will not be renewed unless I choose to travel to other SF Parks that I have never attended. I am voting with my wallet this season and supporting parks that I think deserve my money more than Six Flags.
I won't say they overcharge at the gate because I would buy a season pass if I was going to Six Flags. It just makes economic sense buy the pass and go enough to make it pay for itself. Same with parking,why pay $15 a day when you can get a season pass and season parking and in 3 visits they are paid off?
End rant....
I hate trying to defend a company I am boycotting but at times it has to happen. I see the light but it's not close enough for me to jump in front of that train yet.
GregLeg said:This has long been thought to be at least one of the reasons why Kennywood DOESN'T offer season passes -- Pittsburgh bus service has multiple routes stop there (even after the cutbacks, apparently )
I still think they should run with my idea (stolen from MSAP). offer a "discount card" that offers, say, half-priced admission for a single day ticket. Charge, meh, 40-50 bucks for the discount card, and you not only *continuously* collect admissions, you also get a nice chunk of change up front...
So easy a caveman could do it! :)
The Kennywood pass thing always bugged me. They could've milked SO much more money from my family with a pass option.
However, it does seem like an attempt to control crowds...which is kind of what SF is doing. Imagine if KW did start offering passes and not only did the 'roving teen crowd' grow, but crowds in general. Suddenly lines are long, more staff is needed to handle the crowds, the park is frustrating to visit and everyone suffers.
Limiting the crowd offers a better experience and a better experience keeps people (and money) coming in. In a sense, it's the "serve less, serve better, make more in the long run" model that some of us are hating on SF for...kind of.
KW may be a family friendly, value, small (or whatever term we choose) park, but Pittsburgh locals have to seriously open their wallets to visit repeatedly. Even if you clean out the local Giant Eagle for those discount tickets, you're looking at almost $200 for a 10-visit season.
Hmmmm...
Nah, I'll ignore the urge to run down the numbers in comparison. :) You can thank me later.
Lord Gonchar said:
But yeah...SF sucks and no one will go there (even though millions of people do) and no one will pay those prices (even though millions do each year) and no one will put up with these silly policies (even though millions do year after year) - they're killing themsleves! Grrrr! Hulk mad!!11one1!People aren't going to go away just because they are put through hell. They just get more determined. And the more hell they are put through the more desperate they get to pay to end their suffering. Love those profits.
What I'm concerned about is how these brilliant tactics will make Six Flags parks more popular then ever. The pain of it all will be impossible to resist. Standing thousands of people in clogged four hour lines won't be enough to contain the crowds.
Six Flags isn't making their parks suck because they don't want people to come. That's just silly. Their parks suck because suffering is a way of life. Shapiro knows people, and knows their need to go through hell to get to fun. Don't get mad at Six Flags because they supply a need. *** Edited 1/26/2007 7:19:00 PM UTC by rc-madness***
Stick with your original position Gonch. Shapiro's crazy scams will bring more people to the parks, not less.
Wow! Excellent use of out of context quoting. :)
I don't think there's a single place I"ve ever said SF's approach would draw MORE people to the park...ever. I've said it will draw more money, but never more people - in fact, that's the entire basis of my argument - less people, more money. Come on, catch up!
All that quote says is millions of people visit the park each year regardless of the policies they put into place. Never says more will...nowhere...not once.
But good try and the sarcasm is cute too. :)
Lord Gonchar said:
...not only did the 'roving teen crowd' grow, but crowds in general. Suddenly lines are long, more staff is needed to handle the crowds, the park is frustrating to visit and everyone suffers...
That sounds like Six Flags now.
I agree with your opinion that people will way for increases in general. But when does the line get drawn? When are people going to be fed up?
Lord Gonchar said:All that quote says is millions of people visit the park each year regardless of the policies they put into place. Never says more will...nowhere...not once.
But good try and the sarcasm is cute too.
Oh, you meant millions already in attendance, not millions more. Hmmm, so yet again we will have to agree to disagree.
Might I remind you his company is billions in debt and Shapiro can't afford to just make symbolic gestures, idealistic speeches just to appease share holders? He can't turn this titanic ship around by avoiding being the worst president of an amusement company. Shapiro has to be the best.
And for you Gonch to suggest that the company is not interested in actually increasing attendance along with revenue... I no longer know where you stand. You are no longer sounding like a spokesman for free enterprise. You are sounding just like another one of these whiney critics railing against the genius of Shapiro. You just wait and see how wrong you are when attendance at Six Flags shoots through the roof.
Sarcasm? What, you think this is funny? I'll have you know amusement is more serious a business then you'll ever know. *** Edited 1/26/2007 8:33:14 PM UTC by rc-madness***
But when does the line get drawn? When are people going to be fed up?
Don't know and I suspect SF doesn't know either - but they have educated guesses based on numbers we'll never see.
Obviously, you reach the point where it does more harm than good and I think that's exactly what they're feeling out right now - what works and what doesn't.
At any rate I don't think they're there yet, they could push further before they reach that line.
They're never going to get $100 at the gate and $12 a soda, but they're working it with $60 gate and $4 soda. So yeah, the line exists.
But still, I just can't overlook the fact that people are still going and while there may be an attendance decrease there's also the subsequent spending increase. People line up for a Q-bot, people wait 3 hours to ride coasters, people buy $4 drinks.
This year will be slightly more telling to me, because this is the year that attendance should reflect the initial changes Shapiro made. (people who visited in 2006 saw the changes, got pissed and won't go back - 2006's return visits just reflected on people's 2005 experiences with the excpetion of the repeat-type visitor)
On top of that they were drawing record crowds by Fright Fest. At the end of the year, if those 'same-year' deserters were going to jump ship, I'm not sure record crowds would have been seen. (although the draw of Halloween events anymore doesn't hurt)
So what's it all mean?
SF could certainly reach the point where the alienation of guests hurts more than it helps. I don't think they're even in that vicinity yet. But based on what actually happened (and not gut feeling or business basics) - they did just fine (and by just fine, I mean no worse than before) and people weren't scared away. Let's see what happens in 2007, I guess.
You have to through stuff up against the wall and see what sticks. :)
-Tambo
SF might want a per cap of, say $60, but how many people would be willing to spend that? They have to find the point where the resulting drop in attendance wouldn't offset the increased per cap revenue, which seems to be where they are now.
RGB, Six Flags free since 1978.
SF could certainly reach the point where the alienation of guests hurts more than it helps. I don't think they're even in that vicinity yet. But based on what actually happened (and not gut feeling or business basics) - they did just fine (and by just fine, I mean no worse than before) and people weren't scared away. Let's see what happens in 2007, I guess.
I'm going to take a shot at this...some are saying they've CROSSED the line, others say they're close to the line, and a few say they're not even "in that vicinity".
What I think is unimportant. (But, since I'm here anyway, LOL). I think they have about another 10-15% before they reach break-even, where attendance drops hurt the bottom line.
What IS important, since my opinion means nothing? ;)
Well, the attendance figures are....but as Gonch noted earlier, they have a "lag" built in. IF the ticket prices scare people away, then we won't know it for certain until a year AFTER. No one goes to the park and drives away due to high prices...but they MIGHT think twice before going back next year...which is last year's this year...or something... ;)
:)
*** Edited 1/27/2007 12:31:48 AM UTC by rollergator***
You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)
And about limiting crowds, isn't a park more profitable by expanding as crowds get larger? Offering more shows, attractions, shops, and food stands is how it seems to me amusement parks alleviate higher attendance year after year. Raising prices to keep the lower-middle-class out isn't going to help SF, no matter what Gonch says
2Hostyl, You underestimate how much money SF gets from me on my 1 visit every 5 years. Last time I went, I spent $40 for a discount ticket, $10 for parking, $30ish for the flashpass, and maybe $40ish for drinks and snacks. I did go out to the car for a sandwich and juice for lunch. You are saying that they don't want my $120? They would rather me take that money to Hersheypark? How much do I have to spend before I am welcome?
No I don't feel I am hypocritical just because I speak out against SF customer hostile practices, and yet limit my visits to the park 1 out of every 5 years. Let me reiterate that I would go every year if the park treated the customers as well as all of the other parks their size. I am giving them 80% less money than I would if the service was on par.
I do have an idea about how SF could get more people to spend more money, seriously and not sarcastically. They could force you to spend in the park by adding Flashpass to the admission and adding a certain amount of "Six Flags Bucks" to the price.
Regular admission is not offered anymore. Option 1 is only $145 per person per day. You get admission to the park for one day (no reentry), FREE! flashpass, FREE! $50 in Six Flags Bucks, and 2 FREE! bottles of soda (a $5 valus!).
Option 2 is only $250 per person per day and gives you, admission to the park (FREE! re-entry allowed once per day), FREE! GOLD flashpass, FREE! $100 in Six Flags Bucks, 2 FREE! bottles of soda, and $25 in game coupons.
Don't forget that this is after the $15 parking fee.
I am a genius! Where do I sign up for Sharpio's job?
RatherGoodBear said:
The trick is there is no one LINE that applies to everyone.
Oh, I agree TOTALLY.
But that's what business is all about - finding the point that works the best. The place where that line maximizes your profit.
Dex said:
I do have an idea about how SF could get more people to spend more money, seriously and not sarcastically. They could force you to spend in the park by adding Flashpass to the admission and adding a certain amount of "Six Flags Bucks" to the price.I am a genius! Where do I sign up for Sharpio's job?
You're right. It is genius. The only thing is they already offered something like this last year. But it was optional.
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