Shapiro at it again?
dexter said:
I think word of mouth works very well, especially with kids and teens. One kid mentions how much fun he had at SF last week, the kid he was talking to begs his parents to take him next week. On the flip side, One kid mentions what a bad time he had at SF last week because of long lines, bad food, mean employees, etc., the kid he was talking to asks his parents to take him to a different park the next week. How anyone could agree that word of mouth is overrated is beyond my comprehension.
Yeah, except in the real world it doesn't work like that. When I was a kid (as in NOT AN ENTHUSIAST) I was so ecstatic that we were going to an amusement park AT ALL that I didn't dare say "No, mom, I'd rather go to a different park because Bobby had to pay a lot for his hamburger."
I say this again, you're talking with huge branded household names. That's like (I mentioned before) trying to say that one teen will go to the next that his Pepsi was warm and he overpaid and his buddy won't buy Pepsi ever again. It's not going to affect his decision. The worst that will happen is he'll feel a couple bottles in the cooler to make sure HIS isn't warm. But it'll still be a Pepsi. If it's not, it's because of his own preferences, not because his buddy got a warm one (You could substitute 'Coke' there instead of Pepsi and the point would still be valid)
If you were talking about Bubba's Pot-Belly Stove, Diana's Cafe, or even Ecco Domani then I'd believe you (Those are 3 private non-chain restaurants located in Coopersburg, PA. They are all accessible from a turn off 309 North, and if heading that way to Dorney, I highly recommend all 3 as a lunch option. They all have awesome food and awesome service, with a price point for dinner around $10-$15, including drink AND tip. I only found out about them through word-of-mouth at Lutron when I interned there in 2000). McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Taco Bell... you get the idea. I wasn't fazed by the finger in the Chili, the e-coli scare (wasn't my area), or the claim that the place got my neighbor's kid fat. They're national household brands. So is Six Flags. Word of mouth will affect it a little bit, but the impact is going to be statistically negligible.
dexter said:
dannerman said:No matter how many high school kids or foreigners you cram in a pizza or burger joint, there's only so fast you can make the food. The lines would be longer, and six flags would make less it profit (as had been shown ad nauseum by Gonch). It's a lose-lose situation.
That problem is easily solved by making sure that all of the food stands are open, and that you have enough help at those food stands. Very simple actually.
Heh. Do me a favor and go work in Food Service this summer at an amusement park. I mean ANY amusement park -- it doesn't have to be Six Flags. I actually worked 2 summers in Food Service at Dorney when I was in high school. Very valuable experience, actually. I also worked for a year and a half in a Taco Bell, not to mention 3 years in food service on campus while in college. Trust me when I say it is NOT that simple, especially since in those situations you are almost always already at capacity. There is a limit to how quickly you can prepare food, unless you're into serving it raw. The half-hour-long lines I've experienced at Six Flags (particular GAdv b/c I visit that one most often out of SF due to proximity) are usually when all the stands *are* on. Capacity? Not sure, but they had every window open and every register manned with a 3-deep line waiting for food they had already paid for. They actually *couldn't* take any more orders until they gave out some food, which they were waiting on being finished in the oven/fryer/etc.
When you have a Taco Bell restaurant staffed with 2 people on "counter", 2 people on drive thru, (with 3 people making the counter orders, and 3 other people focusing only on drive thru), as well as one person non-stop bringing supplies from the cooler to the prep lines, cooking the beef/chicken/steak, and one person on dishes, while another one is non-stop wiping tables/trays and emptying the dining room trash cans... and you *STILL* have a 20-minute line for food regardless if you're in the DT or in the store despite an average serve time of about 90 seconds? How are you supposed to improve that? There are only 2 registers at counter, 2 at DT (one for taking orders, one for taking money/handing the food), there's only space on each line for 3 people, and the food can only be cooked so fast. We were AT CAPACITY and still had 20 minute lines....for Taco Bell! Granted the store was located in a mall parking lot during the Christmas shopping season. In other words busy day = long lines, no matter how efficient.
Your logic seems to suggest that if we fill a food stand elbow-to-elbow with workers we will magically be able to sell limitless numbers of hot dogs, hamburgers, pizzas, and sodas. That just isn't physically possible. Another term you might want to research a smidgen: "Diminishing returns"
Arthur B said:
I do concede that BGEs price is high but I also feel that Busch has been successful in positioning its park as a true "upscale" park. The excellent theming, the immaculate cleanliness, the beautiful landscaping, the good service and operations, the better than average park food: these all reinforce this image.
I agree with everything you said about BGE *except* their operations. They are terrible. They are as bad at stacking as any SF park I've been to. They run Alpy with two trains and stack as bad as SFKK with Chang. When they had the Wild Maus it was horrifically slow loading (and overbraked to boot). And let's not even talk about the 'stacked on the safeties routinely' operation that is Apollo's Chariot.
BGE has many things going for it (most notably the Canadian Smokehouse), but efficient operations is definitely not one of them.
Barry Williams said:
You don't eat them, do you? The characters?
This is begging for a Snow White and the Seven Dwarves joke, but I'll leave it to your imagination. ;)
lata, jeremy
-- sick, sick, sick...
I don't even know what "character dining options" are. That's something too scary for me to even contemplate.
You don't eat them, do you? The characters?
Personally, I'm kind of in the mood for a little seafood. How about Ariel, the Little Mermaid? ;) ;)
StLCPfan said:
The way I see it is that if people feel they HAVE to spend their money in the park they won't come back. Yeah, Six Flags makes the same amount of money on my season pass whether I visit once or ten times this summer. But if I leave when I get hungry because I don't like being FORCED to eat their food the park's per capita spending goes DOWN, not up. The majority of one-time visitors eat in the park anyway, so it's the season pass holders who will just go home instead of being FORCED to eat in the park. I think this plan will backfire on Snypiro.
But here's the thing, if you're a season passholder who usually eats in the parking lot, how is SF losing money? They weren't getting your food money to begin with. And if you decide to visit less, then they dont have to contend with you drinking their free water, pissing in their toilets, etc....but they still have your money.
The only way this hurts SFI is if people who normally stay in the park to eat suddenly decide to not eat/visit "on principle". However, it's been my experience that people "as a whole" arent nearly as principled as they'd have you to believe. As Gonch has pointed out earlier, many here have berated SF's business practices, but they are not so peeved that they completely stay away. These are people who feel so strongly about the topic that they argue with people they dont even know just so that their frustrations are well documented...but they *still* go through the gates.
Heck, I've heard people complain that Flash Pass is a "scam" is "overpriced" and "only a result of poor operations"...but these same folks have admitted to buying one (a Gold one even) because 'it was the only way to have a good day'. Now if these 'principled' people havent significantly altered their visiting patterns what makes you think that someone who isnt affected by the policy is going to suddenly feel "trapped" and be less inclined to go?
As I said before, I bet that there are some who will base their visitng patterns on this policy. But that number will be statisicially insignificant.
I really don't see why Six Flags is so tentative about this whole profit thing? Literally they should have Super Heroes chasing after people for their wallets. I’m with Gonch. Let Six Flags do what they want you whiners! It's great fun just seeing how people react. Guests are like guinea pigs. Got to try different things to see what produces results.
At this point Shapiro really has no other choice. So untie his hands and let him do what ever it takes to turn this Six Flags thing around. And Mexico as America's testing ground is great because where else are these unfortunate guests going to go? Cedar Fair Mexico? As if...
Shapiro needs more ideas for Six Flags Mexico guys. Please, do your part and submit suggestions.
*** Edited 1/25/2007 5:36:44 PM UTC by rc-madness***
What else could they do? Maybe charge money for water fountains--they do have a water bill to pay, ya know. Or how about Flash Pass online ride reservations, where you can literally plan out your day weeks in advance (Gonch might love this one). Maybe they could start charing extra for the shows....maybe they could even charge money if you decide to leave the park "early", like the early termination fee of a cell phone contract :)
*** Edited 1/25/2007 5:05:07 PM UTC by rablat5***
coastin' since 1985
Or how about Flash Pass online ride reservations, where you can literally plan out your day weeks in advance (Gonch might love this one).
Oh, I do. Totally unrelated, but I really think that's the potential future of the destination parks.
Disney already lets you plan so much in advance that you can set an itinerary for much of your trip before you even get there. Combine that with the Fastpass technology and have your days planned before you even get on the plane to Orlando.
8:30am - Leave Hotel
9:00 - Enter Magic Kingdom
9:15 - Dumbo
9:30 - Goofy's Barnstormer
...and so on. It's friggin' genius.
More on topic, I'm sure you'll be angered to know that Shapiro did say they were going to offer presales of Q-bots online this year. We'll have to see if that pans out.
But yeah...SF sucks and no one will go there (even though millions of people do) and no one will pay those prices (even though millions do each year) and no one will put up with these silly policies (even though millions do year after year) - they're killing themsleves! Grrrr! Hulk mad!!11one1!
rc-madness, what a great idea! It's totally like adding insult to injury, though it could potentially cause more injury, so then I guess it would be injury to insult to injury. Plus, this would be a great way to keep those security guards employed, as it would probably encourage more in-line fights :)
coastin' since 1985
You don't know Shapiro if you think he's afraid to try new things. The guy knows grumpy guests are far more likely to shell out indiscriminate amounts of cash; turning lemons into lemonade he is. Who else can convince park guests to pay to eat roaches? Mr. crazy-brilliant, that's who.
*** Edited 1/25/2007 7:01:50 PM UTC by rc-madness***
Lord Gonchar said:
Disney already lets you plan so much in advance that you can set an itinerary for much of your trip before you even get there. Combine that with the Fastpass technology and have your days planned before you even get on the plane to Orlando.8:30am - Leave Hotel
9:00 - Enter Magic Kingdom
9:15 - Dumbo
9:30 - Goofy's Barnstormer...and so on. It's friggin' genius.
Genius until you realize you're missing a few entries.
8:40 - riding on monorail you realize the camera's back in the room.
9:08 - Suzie insists she has to get one of those Tinker Bell shirts she sees some other little girl wearing.... RIGHT NOW
9:26 - how about you all stand still so we can get this picture with Mickey already?
9:49 - 4 feet away from Barnstormer (finally) little Johnny has to pee real bad.
Then again, I guess that's not the park's problem. But who really can plan that far in advance for every possible situation?
There'd be extra time alloted specifically for bathroom stops and food breaks.
There'd be a 'time window' for your ride time (like Q-bot) and you wouldn't wait in line for anything. (like the Disney FastPass already works)
If you miss a ride 'time window', no biggie - you move on to the next item in the itinerary.
I know it's a little scary to think that things in the amusement indutry might change, but you can already reserve and prepay for almost everything at Disney except rides (shows, meals, character meetings, etc). Disney also offers FastPass and various VIP options and is able to account for those folks and the 'stand-by' line. It's just a simple as combining the technologies to create an itinerary for the entire day.
Obviously standard disclaimers apply (for missed times and ride problems), but don't think for a second that a family making that once in a lifetime trip would pay-up and use the system to 'guarantee' certain rides and experiences during their stay.
My mind races at the possibilities:
-'open' time slots
-maybe use a points system to keep it easy for the guest
-or even larger time windows - (Space Mountain 2:00pm-3:00pm) - essentially a sequential series of FastPasses that you receive in advance leaving time for both planned rides and 'open' time
It's brilliant!
*** Edited 1/25/2007 6:35:19 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
Lord Gonchar said:
But yeah...SF sucks and no one will go there (even though millions of people do) and no one will pay those prices (even though millions do each year) and no one will put up with these silly policies (even though millions do year after year) - they're killing themsleves! Grrrr! Hulk mad!!11one1!Not sure whether to just sit here and applaud (my first choice), or to berate you for using a Universal character.... I'll pick option 'A'. :)
Of course, once Disney builds resorts in the *thousands* of locations previously identified as places that "Disney owns property"...then SF might have to re-think....probably not until then.... ;)
*** Edited 1/25/2007 6:53:02 PM UTC by rollergator***
2Hostyl said:
They run Alpy with two trains and stack as bad as SFKK with Chang.
Sorry, I can't resist -- For SFKK to stack on Chang, wouldn't they need to run more than 1 train?? :)
Just kidding (kinda..),
Jerry
The current system is open to everyone and is included with admission price. With Six Flags, the system costs extra, and on top of that, the park isn't run like it should be, so the regular guest suffers more.
If Six Flags would/could run this system at least as well as Disney (including not charging extra), then it might not be so bad. Heck, they DID used to run a free one, and I even used it! :)
*** Edited 1/25/2007 7:33:00 PM UTC by rablat5***
coastin' since 1985
I find the 'lottery' system of Disney just as unfair as the 'pay' system of SF (and Dollywood :) ). Fastpasses are technically not available to everyone. The lottery is open to all, but like any lottery there are more participants than winners and no guarantee of a prize.
I prefer the option to just pony up a few bucks and get my guaranteed virtual waiting in than to have to spend time going out of my way to grab a Fastpass (and then not be in control of my ride time). It's a control/convenience thing. :)
I'd gladly spend money for that convenience and control of a Q-bot than succumb to the randomness that is Fastpass.
I'm constantly shocked by people who, for example, get in a 90 minute line on an attraction with a fastpass return time of 70 minutes. Just like I've never understood how return of at most 65 cents per dollar wagered makes sense.
As for SF, they wouldn't have as much of a need for Flash Pass, and I might not mind it as much, if they ran the system and the rides the way it should be run.
Personally, I wish the parks would just keep things simple and just run the rides the standard way--everyone (save handicapped folks) wait in the same line and the park run the rides at capacity. But, if SF is going to implement Flash Pass (which they have and do), please please please run the rides at capacity! Also, don't let so many Flash Pass users through at one time, and make sure everyone using the Flash Pass line is valid.
If they implemented these things, then it wouldn't be as big of a nuisance. One of my big beefs with the system is that it has too much of an effect on the regular queue folks. If there was minimal impact, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Of course, now we're getting back into SF operations, and we know that they stink :)
coastin' since 1985
Ah, but the beauty of fastpass is, like most lotteries, it is a tax on the stupid.
Ha! Love it.
I need to remember the "tax on the stupid" thing - that's good (and useful in many situations). :)
2Hostyl said:As Gonch has pointed out earlier, many here have berated SF's business practices, but they are not so peeved that they completely stay away. (Character attack blablabla character attack)...but they *still* go through the gates.
Heck, I've heard people complain that Flash Pass is a "scam" is "overpriced" and "only a result of poor operations"...but these same folks have admitted to buying one (a Gold one even) because 'it was the only way to have a good day'. Now if these 'principled' people havent significantly altered their visiting patterns what makes you think that someone who isnt affected by the policy is going to suddenly feel "trapped" and be less inclined to go?
As I said before, I bet that there are some who will base their visitng patterns on this policy. But that number will be statisicially insignificant.
I assume that that was directed at me. Why the hostility, 2Hostyl? Are you implying that I am a hypocrite? Do YOU feel so strongly about the topic that YOU argue with people YOU don't even know just so that YOUR frustrations are well documented? Isn't THAT hypocritical?
I HAVE "significantly altered" my "visiting patterns". So you are saying that it is "statistically insignificant" that I and probably many others would only visit once per every five years instead of once every year? Yes I got the flash pass (but not GOLD like you embellished above) on my last visit two summers ago, but it really left me feeling guilty. I kind of feel that I was forced to get it, because I noticed that I just wasn't going to get very many rides in that day without it because of the crappy operations.
"You felt guilty?", you ask. People on the other side look at you differently. It separates the "haves" from the "have nots". Booing and hissing is normal in lines especially near the "merging point". Other ingenious configurations offer crowded exit ramps that are a great place for traffic to collide and people to un-uniformly congregate, wondering where the flash pass line starts. I may have got twice as many rides with flashpass, but at who's expenses? And was the uncomfortable feeling I dragged around with me all day worth it? Not for me. It was the first time and it will be the last time I get a flash pass.
Flash pass is just wrong. It easy to see if you watch closely that it just doesn't work the way it is being implemented right now. If it didn't take away value from the non-botters, it may be a different story. If the park offered me illegal drugs, would it be ok for me to buy them?
You are going to tell me that if they simply ran their rides at capacity, charged what every other park that size charges (or less), had good food, and treated the customer like they were the most important reason the business exists, that they wouldn't be more profitable? More people through the gates equals more money spent on stuff inside the gates, and to get more people through the gates you have to offer them a good time at the park each and every time they visit, so that they may consider returning at least once per year, imho.
A lot of other parks get me through their gates at least once per year. You're telling me that SF *doesn't* wish that I would come through their gates instead?
Are you suggesting that I am being hypocritical because even though I speak out against their service and value, I still visit them, although very rarely? I am a coaster enthusiast, remember? I have to go a few times a decade to get the coaster credits. They build some nice coasters. Trouble is that it is a very huge inconvenience to get to ride them. I do what I have to do to get the credits.
And I guess I speak out against them in hopes that some SF bigwig reads my comments and gets the idea that some of their business practices are being looked at as customer hostile. I do this because I, as a coaster enthusiast, see SF as a company that I could eventually show fanfare to, if only they were to treat me, as a guest in their park, right.
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