Shanghai Disneyland will close in effort to contain coronavirus

If enough people don’t get vaccinated, thus continuing to keep covid floating around, the risk is that it mutates to something the vaccine that I have is not good against. And we start all over again.

ApolloAndy said:

I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was a thing at some point.

Our college is discussing it right now as an option for the fall; for both students and employees. In a month or so we are getting a shipment of the J & J one-shot for anyone who wants it (most faculty I know of are already done, though); college campuses finally finding their spot on the totem pole.

If it wasn't, you know, April Frickin' Fools Day, I would have loved that well-thought-out and deftly written press release to be real. Wife and I get our second dose April 24th, so we would just make the hypothetical cut. It's almost as if it was too good to be true, while also plausible...

I would write more, but I'm thinking of ways to earn RCMAC's forgiveness...

There is no herd immunity without kids getting vaccinated, so in the event that vaccination has a limited duration of effectiveness or the virus mutates in ways that make it more transmittable or deadly, we're not there until early next year at best.

With regard to who gets protected, sorry Dave, I think your point is bull****. There will always be some part of the population more vulnerable, or possibly can't have the vaccination. Ignoring that is the reason things have gone so poorly to date. I have neighbors in that boat, and they can't go anywhere, let alone take their vulnerable daughter out of the house.

It's not a perfect analogy (so don't bother with anecdotes), but we offer ADA accommodations for the same reasons. Allowing some to board a bus first is not a real inconvenience, it's giving other humans the dignity they deserve. That's what getting vaccinated partly involves: protecting those who can't.

And yeah, you can't go to school without vaccines. There is precedence for this already. I even had to take a TB test once to work in a school. I would be shocked if some public venues didn't require you flash your CDC card or proof of some variance. For cruise ships, I fully expect it.

None of these vaccines have full FDA approval at this point, it's approval for emergency use which is why the military recommends but does not yet require the vaccination. If the military can't require something of its members yet because of the current approval status is it really a good idea to let the business sector run wild requiring it of people in order to do mundane things like eat at a restaurant? I'm guessing quite a few of you are probably cool with that but I'm not.

Well, if we're going to be all "let the markets decide" on all kinds of things, I think you have to do it here as well. If Disney can require a mask, there's no reason (unless it's a protected class in anti-discrimination law) that a cruise can't require a vaccine as well. I don't really see an ethical or societal issue there either, especially if their business depends on it.

That said, it is a little bit sticky from the other side (pastor hat on). It's not something I need to know in general and it comes along with a lot of questions that I definitely don't need to ask (e.g. "Why does that twenty year old have a shot already?"). I don't necessarily trust everybody to be totally honest, whether intentionally or accidentally or "9 days after my second shot is close enough. I'll just say it's 14 days" and I also don't want to be the vaccine police and I definitely don't want to exclude people who, for whatever reason, can't/won't get the shot. But it would make a WHOLE lot easier if we just said "Shot or don't come."

Plus any time I have seen the conversation around a vaccine passport it has been about cruises, sporting events, concerts, theme parks, etc. Not really what I would call mundane activities but even then I feel like it should be up to the individual and how they want to run their business. I mean didn't we already decide that with a bakery?

99er said:

I mean didn't we already decide that with a bakery?

Right, but the side that is all about a vaccine passport inhibiting 'Merican freedom was in favor of the bakery guy being discriminatory. Which means now is not the time to have that conversation, or something like that.

Flag-waving freedom fighting "patriots" are pretty selective about what 'Merica freedom is. The same people who insist that gun regulation will interfere with law abiding citizens also believe that voter suppression laws don't interfere with law abiding citizens, and in those instances, one issue attempts to address a problem, the other attempts to address an imaginary problem.

Jeff said:

There is no herd immunity without kids getting vaccinated, so in the event that vaccination has a limited duration of effectiveness or the virus mutates in ways that make it more transmittable or deadly, we're not there until early next year at best.

We reach herd immunity by letting the kids get it - old school chickenpox style. Because they are overwhelmingly low risk.

With regard to who gets protected, sorry Dave, I think your point is bull****.

Since no one else is going to (or hasn't yet) jumped in, I think Dave's point is the only one that makes sense. Otherwise we're doing exactly what some of us feared (maybe just me around here) - always finding the "Yeah, but..." and dragging this out for far too long.

There will always be some part of the population more vulnerable, or possibly can't have the vaccination.

And that's always been the case. What did/do these people do about other transmissable diseases that pose a threat? Why is COVID any different?

I would be shocked if some public venues didn't require you flash your CDC card or proof of some variance. For cruise ships, I fully expect it.

Luckily, those little CDC cards are going to be incredibly easy to forge.

And if it turns into another more "official" form of ID, you're going to get even more backlash than you are now.

But even on this topic in general, well, the ol' CoasterBuzz conversation was a year ahead of the game.

Gonch said on April 10, 2020:

...I'd also like to semi-facetiously add some snarky comment about the government asking "to see your papers"

I've held the same view since the vaccine started to rollout - once it's readily available to everyone, we give six weeks for two doses plus time. 90 days buffer and then it's on the individual.

If we start kicking the can down the road with the "Yeah, but..." thing around every corner, we're all gonna be surprised (or maybe not) at how quickly Gonch starts looking and sounding exactly like the "'Merica & Ma Freedoms" crowd.

(I also love that I could pretty much participate in the current conversation by simply referring to things I've said months - and even a year - ago. 😎)

I'm on the bleeding heart liberal side of the political slider (Bingo) but at the current rate of vaccination success, by the second half of summer vacation season I'm fully on board with the "it's on you to be responsible, not on me to continue modifying my behavior for an indefinite amount of time" group since I'll be long fully vaccinated and have done my part for the greater good.

edit: And everyone else will have had that same opportunity.

It frustrates me to no end (on behalf of the admittedly small fraction of people who can’t get the vaccine or who will get symptoms even with the vaccine) that we even have to have that conversation at all. It’s obviously inevitable, but “just get the d@mn shot.” I get the initial hesitancy, but if Biden and Trump agree on something...

I mean, I think I see the tension between Jeff’s and Dave’s points and I think I agree with both. To Jeff’s point, we always have a responsibility to others and to just say “It’s the wild west; do what you want” is ignoring that obligation. We’ve ignored that obligation a lot and it’s not been great for us. To Dave’s (and Gonch’s) point, with the vaccine widely available, the amount of impact I can have on another person is greatly reduced. Should people care about each other? Yes. Should people get the shot? Yes. Should people not be dicks? Yes. Will they? No. There’s some merit to fighting that, but at some point it won’t change anything.

That's just it... our society doesn't seem to have the will to not be selfish, and actually look out for each other. That frustrates me. The every person for themselves mentality is the reason the pandemic has been an unnecessary disaster. It's why we can't beat racism, too.

We keep talking about sliders, but when someone asks you to give an inch, you act like it's miles.

Thanks, Gonch.

I'm not arguing that it isn't an unpleasant thing. I'm arguing that it's the only practical solution.

We have decided as a country that health records are private, and we have laws with pretty strong teeth to enforce that view. We also recognize that people have certain personal liberties, which include the right to make poor decisions. We further recognize that there are people who cannot or should not subject themselves to a vaccination. Plus, we are using vaccines which according to our own legal standards are technically still experimental, which further increases the pool of people who might not want to get them.

So even if we somehow exempt vaccine status from the legal privacy status of health information, there is still the issue of related health information which might explain a person's lack of vaccination, and testing data (also private) to indicate whether an unvaccinated person is believed to be healthy or not. Then the whole issue is rendered moot by additional laws which require accommodation for people with medical conditions which limit their activities...which wouldn't be an issue except that now we're artificially creating a new disability (inability to be vaccinated) which must be accommodated.

So...now you have to prove you are vaccinated to come into some facility, or you have to demonstrate that you aren't infected, or you have to self-identify as someone who cannot be vaccinated in which case we have to figure out a way to accommodate you anyway. Or you can circumvent the whole problem by (being an asshole and) forging a vaccine card in which case you've just rendered the entire system worthless. In other words, it's like temperature checks to screen for an illness that, as it turns out, usually does not cause fever. It's a waste of time and effort for the purpose of essentially protecting unvaccinated (but most likely not infected anyway) people from each other, in what would remain a relatively low risk environment. At some point the business has to admit that it can't be responsible for the health risks taken by its customers. And we as customers need to understand that.

If you can, get the shot. If you can't, or won't, be aware of the risks involved, and adjust your behavior accordingly.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I was with you until “can’t.” If you won’t get the shot, I still care about you but “making the bed you lie in” etc. Though even then, I’d at least like to think that I’m not going to just throw you to the wolves and say “not my problem.” But if you really can’t get vaccinated, then throwing you to the wolves is unconscionable. As an individual I think I’m doing what I can, but as a society, “wild west free for all” doesn’t seem too good for those people.

I honestly have no idea what portion of people can’t get a vaccine though. Anyone have numbers or charts?

Speaking of temperature checks: Don’t try to bypass one on your next visit to Disney.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/2021/04/03/disney-world-guest-says-he...ure-check/

Sills was a handful of men who were arrested earlier this year for tirades after they refused to follow Disney’s strict health rules

I'll never understand this. There are rules, you follow the rules, life is easy. How hard is it to follow the rules? Or at least be a man and when called out for not following them own up to it.

“Will you take my temperature before you kick me out, please?” Sills asked as he was led away handcuffed, according to the deputies’ body camera footage.

“They’ll do that in jail, sir,” a deputy appeared to say.

lol

The CDC is recommending no one sails on cruises, crew or passengers, without being vaccinated (a position that I'm sure the lines will adopt):

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0402-conditional-sail-orders.html

0g said:

Speaking of temperature checks: Don’t try to bypass one on your next visit to Disney.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/2021/04/03/disney-world-guest-says-he...ure-check/

This is clear evidence that Disney hates everyone, big just poor people.

I’m surprised he was allowed back after a prior arrest.

To answer my own question:

As of December 23, 2020, a reported 1,893,360 first doses of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine had been administered in the United States, and reports of 4,393 (0.2%) adverse events after receipt of Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine had been submitted to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). Among these, 175 case reports were identified for further review as possible cases of severe allergic reaction, including anaphylaxis. Anaphylaxis is a life-threatening allergic reaction that does occur rarely after vaccination, with onset typically within minutes to hours (3). Twenty-one cases were determined to be anaphylaxis (a rate of 11.1 per million doses administered), including 17 in persons with a documented history of allergies or allergic reactions, seven of whom had a history of anaphylaxis. The median interval from vaccine receipt to symptom onset was 13 minutes (range = 2–150 minutes). Among 20 persons with follow-up information available, all had recovered or been discharged home. Of the remaining case reports that were determined not to be anaphylaxis, 86 were judged to be nonanaphylaxis allergic reactions, and 61 were considered nonallergic adverse events.

From https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm

tl;dr - It's about 11 cases per million and all cases recovered. So, really, not that many people are actually allergic.