SF: beginning of the end?

Call it doom and gloom if you want. I call it "waking up to reality". And the reality is, Six Flags as we know it is in the process of a major wake up call. Either they begin to turn things around, or someone else will.

The arm chair quarter back is just a few people having some fun with the "posibilities". Big deal.

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westcoaster man said:
Well CF has already expressed major interest in SFMM

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According to whom? The Lemon Chill Guy? I missed the press release. Some newspaper made some silly speculation, but the company never expressed any interest.

In a way, I agree with and understand what Jeffrey R Smith is saying. I think a lot of us have had our really bad experiences with SF, and want to see them suffer for it.

When you get right down to it, SF has done this to themselves, which may have a really negative effect on the industry we all love. This fact causes me great anger and sadness. What we need now is a sort of second coming of the amusement park messiah.

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dexter said:

What we need now is a sort of second coming of the amusement park messiah.

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... and his name is Bill Gates.

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Impulse-ive said:
I could see SFoG, SFoT, SFMM, SFGAdv and SFGAm (the "big boys") becoming their own company, still with the Six Flags name, but a new management, etc.

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I agree, much like the now "Star Parks" of Europe

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Impulse-ive said: I think SFFT is another good choice for independance, due to their good shows reputation.

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It survived as an independant park before, I'm sure it could do it again.

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Impulse-ive said: Busch isn't getting into the biz, they're trying to get OUT of the biz. SFStL could probably struggle along as an independant a couple of years, but might ultimately fail if the St Louis area doesn't grow too much.

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However they have ALWAYS wanted a park near the corporate HQ in St. Louis and have expressed interest in SFStL numerous times.

I don't want to see Six Flags suffer for their problems. How would it benefit anyone besides investors? Remember, you're talking about lost jobs, taxes, tourists etc. Think about the businesses that depend on the parks for a good part of their income during the summer. When we went to SFNE last year, I looked for hotels/motels. There had to be at least 20 properties within minutes of the park due its proximity to the airport. Everyone of the properties I looked at mentioned SFNE in their ad. So lets see, between the two of us: We ate at Subway, got gas at the Shell, shopped at the local convenience store twice, got Frosties at the Wendy's, and we got a room for two nights. And that was just in Connecticut. I'm not including the trip up and back to Baltimore. So tell me again how closing all the Six Flags benefits anyone?

I understand the tough love approach that some would like to see, but I think it's short sighted. There's too much money to be made to simply abandon ship. Someone has to have an answer of how to get the company moving in the right direction again.

Now there I couldn't agree with you more Intamin Fan. However, some people who have had frustrating visits to the parks I guess need to vent, since they can't get back the time and money they wasted. I get that.

But your right, hopefully they'll be a happy ending here. I certainly don't want to see anymore parks close. I would like to see Burke and Co, outsted off their high horses though. They've ruined far too many parks to get another chance.

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palwine said:
I would hope someone would be interested in SFNE....I would bet it is one of SF's bigger $$ makers. It attracts folks from Boston, Hartford, NYC, and even from southern Canada. (I actually heard a radio commercial for SFNE in Canada!) It was so many great rides, classic ones too.

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Hey dont forget Providence and the whole state of RI, as we have no park we all go to either Canobie or Six Flags, and almost everyone I know goes atleast once a year and its 2 hours away. I know for a fact that SFNE is one of SF's biggest money makers and it gets a huge crowd every year, hence all the attractions we get, ie one of the best water parks in the country, and we get a lot of prototype water rides and everything. SFNE is at the top of the SF chain when it comes to profit.

Well it's nice to fantasize, but the reality is that neither Cedar Fair nor anyone else can afford to buy 5 or 6 parks from SF at one time-- you're talking well over a billion dollars there. And if SF is looking at unloading parks, they're going to do it in one fell swoop, not over a period of 10-15 years so someone like CF can buy one every 4 or 5 years. Maybe it fits in well with an enthusiasts dream, but that's not how business works.

I don't think Snyder, Gates, et al, are in this just to unload all the assets either. It seems more realistic that the company will hold onto the bigger flagship parks-- maybe 6 or 8 or so, and look to unload the others. And sad as it may be, selling them to someone who'll keep them as parks may not be the preferred option.

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RatherGoodBear said:
If SF intends to divest itself of all itself smaller properties, and concentrate on a few regional, larger "flagship" parks, that may seem like a reasonable business decision, given their unreasonable business practices of the past.

My question is, if they indeed close (sell off, abandon) their other parks, is there anyone who is willing or able to step up to the plate to take over these places and continue to run them as parks? Do Cedar Fair and Paramount want to take on additional parks? Would any of the smaller players be able to handle it? Or do these parks just become strip malls, condos, and parking lots for other businesses?

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I think that Darien Lake should become a private park. It was a good park before Six Flags bought the park, so being a private park can improve this park's reputation. And I don't think that Cedar Fair or Paramount should buy this park. MarineLand has been a private park for a long time, and PCW has gone downhill ever since Paramount bought the park. The only big roller coaster PCW has in its' Paramount Era is Top Gun. Dragon Fire, SkyRider, Vortex, and The Bat are good pre-paramount roller coasters. And Tomb Raider is a really bad roller coaster.

I'm curious as to how SF park closures would affect ride manufacturers as well. I imagine it could be hard times for some ride makers.

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JDB said:
... and his name is Bill Gates.

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Oh my God, would you let that go already? Gates' investment firm is not going to screw around with what amounts to a lowly $75 million investment. It's not even on their radar, I'm sure. I would expect them to sell their share to Snyder or someone else before they'd ever get involved.

I have visited 5 Six Flags parks this year. They were SFKK, SFDL, SFOG, SFGAm and SFStL. And while I did see many of the problems people always mention, I had a great time at all 5 of them! Perhaps my expectations were not overly large, but I really enjoyed my visits. I would hate to see even some of these parks close. I think Six Flags needs to improve many things and understand their problems, but wanting the parks to close just seems sad to me. As an amusement park enthusiast, I think it would be a lesser world if many of these places went away. I keep fighting to improve the parks one way or another, as a Six Flags park or something else. But I would not want to see any more of them close, including SFKK, which is my home park. Astroworld is sad enough.

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Swoosh said:Hypothetically Speaking Here, If the Flagged Parks Were Sold Off Today… SFMM – (CFLP?) I don’t know if they would want the hassle thoughSFMW – (Busch)SFEG – [closed] SFOG – (CFLP)SFGAm – (CFLP)SFNO – Closing?SFKK – [closed] Maybe sell ride to the State Fair board?SFA – [closed] Maybe Paramount if luckySFNE – [closed] I really don’t thing anyone would want the parkSFStL – (Busch)SGAdv – (CFLP?)SFDL – [closed] I really don’t thing anyone would want the parkSFAW – ClosingSFFT – (Busch)SFoT – (CFLP) *** Edited 9/15/2005 7:27:19 PM UTC by Swoosh***

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Well, I would think that Silver Dollar City/HFEC will put their heads in the game and they would buy SFFT and SFStL. If I were the HFEC I would try to grab up SFFT and make it better than it is now. As for SFStL, I have heard that HFEC might try to get this one, but it would be fitting if Busch got it.

The other parks that might also cold fall into the hands of HFEC is White Water Atlanta (repossession), White Water Okla City, and SFOG (Take over the Atlanta marker with 3 parks close).

OK, It's my understanding that PKS does not intend to piece out the parks but will sell them at an auction for as a package deal. So I suspect that someone will end up buying the chain for a low price and then sell some of the parks to bring in some quick cash.

It is at this point that other people will jump in and by some of the parks. Any parks that do not bring in enough profit and cannot be sold for a reasonable price will be closed and what rides that can be sold wil be. Some parks will be sold for the land (ala SFAW) and the rides sold cheap.

This redistribution of resources is good news for the industry. Current players in the industry will problably snap up some of the parks at cheap prices, and players will enter at lower prices. This will increase competition and possibly renew development in the remaining parks.

DWeaver:your comments on wanting Burke & CO. being ousted from management is something I've been saying all along.They're the reason why alot of parks have been overlooked in recent years & I'm not talking about just a lack of capital for new rides.

Take a look at operations at SFA for example,terrible load & dispatch times,frequent downtime for some rides & rides that are shut down indefinitely.When half of the good flats & water rides are down a majority of the time you know there's definitely a problem in the maintenance & operations dept.

Now of course I'm only mentioning SFA because it's the only SF park I visit,but based on alot of TR's this season it seems these problems are affecting a number of SF properties this season.

I think you could call SFA anything you wanted, and it still wouldn't change the operating environment. The kids just don't give a crap that you're trying to enjoy yourself, and that you don't want to be sitting on the brakerun on every coaster for 5 minutes at a time.

Intamin Fan:

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I understand the tough love approach that some would like to see, but I think it's short sighted.

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I see and grant where you are coming from and you MAY be correct. However, there are other issues you are overlooking in the taxes, jobs, and tourists department.

Take SFMM…If the park is sold for placement of private multi-million dollar homes that are now common to the immediate area…how much taxes do you think those folks pay? Might a plethora of multi-million dollar homes be better for jobs at places like Home Depot, PetsMart, etc? Jobs that would be year-round and not seasonal I might add.

Add to this the fact that you do not have near the traffic/crime/basic headaches that can go along with an amusement park in your backyard… If you look at it from this perspective, things might change a little bit.

This says nothing of using that same land for a multi-entertainment facility (Irvine Spectrum anybody?), that could quickly and easily create more full time jobs than SFMM has seasonal! Irvine Spectrum is a mix and mash of fancy restaurants, large anchor stores, and anything in between---for those who do not know! I know there is the fancy mall set-up down the road, but has anybody seen the ridiculous growth in the hills? You could draw from a larger potential customer base with a multi-use facility in place than an amusement park with bad customer service and reputation for an unsafe environment!

Anyhow, I can think of a lot of uses that would be as good if not better for the local economy than a worn-out amusement park, with crappy service, that caters to teenagers without money to spend…

With a lot of work, I’m sure a park like SFMM could be resurrected. But with a lot less work, you could likely turn that land into a job creating, tax-producing windfall like the area has never seen!

All this…and I still get to take petty solace in the further decline of an amusement park management company that has been “peeing in the soup” of every cash-paying customer through their gates for years! This is a win-win for everybody except hardcore coaster fanboy…

I think the term shortsighted may be a little strong in this case…but I do see where you are coming from!

*** Edited 9/16/2005 2:32:18 PM UTC by Jeffrey R Smith***

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BATWING FAN SFA said:
They're the reason why alot of parks have been overlooked in recent years

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Wow, you work that into every topic you can, don't you?

Nah, that doesn't stop him, Jeff. He's mentioned it in all kinds of non-related topics. ;)