Say Goodbye? Laser at DP
Rob A:
I get tired of hearing how Conneaut isn't a viable business and isn't worthy of being around anymore (when some people around here make their love of the place very well known), yet as soon as something bad is said about Cedar Point, people are accused of not knowing what they're talking about.
The problem is you're comparing the viability of one park with whether the other has enough trees or not. :)
Look at it from the other side:
People keep saying CP doesn't have trees (even though there's plenty of people around here who think so and make it very well known), yet as soon as soon as something bad is said about CLP, people are accused of not letting others have their opinion.
Same story, other side of the fence. :)
Charles, you bring up Hershey, Knoebels and Kennywood. Who here in this thread still participating every has anything bad to say about those parks?
I'd rather see theme parks with expensive admission prices ($100 sounds like a good, round number) and putting a lot of effort into improving the entire operation, rather than trying to find a way to add value to the experience for people that paid more than others. Right now, it's like Cadillac trying to sell a luxurious version of Chevy's cheapo Cobalt- sure, it might have nice leather seating, laser-guided parking assist and steering-adaptive xenon headlights, but it's still a Cobalt and not a Cadillac. I'd rather buy a G8 that's cheaper and not so much a status symbol but manages to be an above-average car... not as cheap as the Cobalt but not an overpriced poseur, either.
(And for the record, Cadillac once tried to sell a version of GM's smallest car in the 1980's- does the name Cimarron ring a bell?)
I'd rather see theme parks with expensive admission prices ($100 sounds like a good, round number) and putting a lot of effort into improving the entire operation, rather than trying to find a way to add value to the experience for people that paid more than others.
Me too. But until the parks figure out that they can get away with it, I'll take what I can get in the meantime. :)
eightdotthree said:
The fact that Conneaut is closed and can't make money makes it loud and freaking clear its not a viable business anymore. If its such a viable business, why can't they get anyone to open it, and keep it running?
So why is it necessary to keep bringing that up? Okay, us Conneaut fans get it already. That being something already established, why does it get mentioned everytime Conneaut enters into the conversation? Can't people just talk about the park because they like the place and wish it were still open?
Can't people just talk about the park because they like the place and wish it were still open?
I guess there's just too many left-brained, realists around here. ;)
[personal POV]
I wish my bank account had 7 figures in it, but it's probably not worth my time to think about or discuss because it's not going to magically happen.
Same thing applies to CLP.
[/personal POV]
Not that you can't talk about it, but why can't others talk about the business viability of the park? You can't have it both ways - some people want to talk love and some want cold, hard numbers.
Everybody's pretty much free to contribute whatever they'd like to whatever conversation they want - just remember there will be opposing viewpoints.
You're treading dangerously close to 'Dexter territory' here. :)
Lord Gonchar said:
I wish my bank account had 7 figures in it, but it's probably not worth my time to think about or discuss because it's not going to magically happen.
Right. And consequently, it's obvious that your bank account has 4 figures in it, so why keep harping on that point?
Not that you can't talk about it, but why can't others talk about the business viability of the park?...Everybody's pretty much free to contribute whatever they'd like to whatever conversation they want - just remember there will be opposing viewpoints.
That's not the problem. This is how the usual Conneaut conversation goes:
Enthusiast 1: "Today it was announced that CLP has received a gift of $10,000 from an anonymous source."
Enthusiast 2: "Wow, that's pretty cool. I wonder if they'll use that to get the coaster back up and running."
Enthusiast 3: "It's no use. Conneaut isn't a viable business anymore and giving it money is like trying to piss up a tree."
...and a never-ending debate takes place, usually going around in circles as they always do. Considering that, why not just avoid throwing gas on the fire? I can see if Enthusiast 3 supplied some kind of report that details how tourism in the Meadville area is on life support, but it's usually the reiteration of something that's been said a million times. It's the kind of thing that provokes that whole never-ending debate thing.
I have no problem talking business. I don't always enjoy it, but I take part in more than my share of "business" discussions (usually with an opposing viewpoint, it seems), and I don't talk about how fruitless those conversations are because none of us are employed by the companies we're discussing. I talk about how line-cutting systems are unfair and how potentially dangerous it is to raise prices a lot in a short amount of time. See what I'm getting at? It's very nice to say that everyone is free to discuss what they want, but sometimes situations are created where conversations are forced to become nasty debates. Sometimes I think that's the point.
Face it... Conneaut fans are a sensitive bunch. Why exploit that unless there is really something new to add to the whole, "it's not a viable business" statement?
*** Edited 8/16/2007 7:40:42 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Enthusiast 2: Cool, glad you liked it.
Enthusiast 3: CP is a concrete wasteland. I would rather go to somewhere with trees and atmosphere. *** Edited 8/16/2007 7:45:20 PM UTC by eightdotthree***
Lord Gonchar said:
Rob A:
Of course a park has to make money to survive, but it seems that every price increase and every additional perk sold seems to be reason to celebrate. Why is that?What happened to being consumers?... because that's what we all are- consumers. We pay for things with our hard-earned money and when I go to a park and see that the parking fee doubled and admission costs $10 more than it did last year, I get pretty pissed.
Oooh, now we're finally getting to it. :)
I am a consumer (with an interest in the business side of the amusement industry).
As a consumer, I find more value in a higher priced/more perk filled experience than a lower priced, run-of-the-mill experience.
That is to say, yes, the idea of a $100+ admission to the park intrigues me.
It'd cut back the crowds, probably lower the in-park prices (and maybe include some 'freebies' like drinks) and I think the parks could handle things in general better if half the people were showing up (better service overall). More money for a better time.
As a consumer, I'll gladly pay premium prices for a premium experience - right now most parks offer an experience that matches their pricing (in general), but no one has really covered that 'premium' end of the spectrum. If you want an lame-to-above average experience, there are plenty of parks will to charge lame-to-above average prices for it.
The 'premium' market is mostly untapped in the amusement industry and as a consumer, it's one I'm very interested in. I'd love nothing more than to see a 'premium' amusement park market emerge.
Your Idea is full of holes and quite honestly, The only parks IMHO worthy of premium service cost and the things that go along with it are located in FL.
This might work well for you now while you have kids and stuff but what about fifteen years from now when You want to visit that same park and it's not 100 dollars, It's 500 dollars for you to have one day at a park with everything you want and no waits.
I already got that at Knoebels. $35 last time I checked.
Chuck
eightdotthree said:
I am not the one who brought it up. Everytime someone mentions cedar fair, six flags, steel coasters and basically any place that does more than 100,000 in attendance it comes up in the form of, "I would rather go somewhere with trees like CLP than go there."
It's not the attendance, Its the amount of things to do and number of rides you'll get vs them parks.
Really, Standing 1.5-3 hours in line for each of a parks star attractions has no interest to me and I shouldn't have to pay extra to cut. Those parks should have more things to do if the crowds warrant it and not remove 3 attractions for one new one. Sure it will draw interest in the short term but long term it's just less to do with longer lines for the remaining attractions.
I don't pay extra, Why, Because there are parks I DON'T HAVE TOO to enjoy em.
Chuck
eightdotthree said:
The fact that Conneaut is closed and can't make money makes it loud and freaking clear its not a viable business anymore. If its such a viable business, why can't they get anyone to open it, and keep it running?Charles, you bring up Hershey, Knoebels and Kennywood. Who here in this thread still participating every has anything bad to say about those parks?
Because they all have tons to do with reasonable waits. for the most part reasonable pricing and very few pay extras.
The formula that works IMHO and keeps people coming back which is the real money maker, Not pay extras and high fees and pricing. Thats short term for GOING OUT OF BUISNESS.
...and a never-ending debate takes place, usually going around in circles as they always do. Considering that, why not just avoid throwing gas on the fire?
More importantly, why start the fire in the first place? ;)
Seriously, you're saying people shouldn't be able to add their thoughts if they don't agree with you.
If it just becomes the same runaround time and time again to the point where you're so fed up with it, then why start the conversation in the first place?
My guess is because you enjoy talking about CLP in your way. Same as enthsiast 3 enjoys it in their way. But it sure feels like you don't want enthusiast three in the conversation because he doesn't agree.
Then when you play the part of enthusiast #3 (as in 8.3's example), you get mad when enthusiasts 1&2 treat you exactly like you treated #3 in the first example.
You're arguing it both ways and it can't be like that. So which would you prefer? No one is allowed to express an opposing viewpoint once the topic takes a focus, or everyone is free to add in a way that works for them?
And just for fun:
Face it... Conneaut fans are a sensitive bunch. Why exploit that unless there is really something new to add to the whole, "it's not a viable business" statement?
Face it...the business interested are a realist bunch. Why invoke that unless there is really something new to add to the whole, "I wish Conneaut was open" statement?
Of course it is, but keep it in the context of what Chuck was trying to call me out for. He said I was making superior vacation choices, and that's why I like or dislike whatever park and feel that it's viable as a business. The two aren't connected in my argument. My choices have no bearing at all in this discussion.
millrace said:
Jeff said: It's not about the superiority of my vacation choices, or yours. It's about the viability of the business. If that lack of warm fuzzy love seems cold to you, so be it. For me at least, it's what keeps me grounded in reality so I can conduct my professional life accordingly.What the heck are you talking about? Is it not possible to enjoy something regardless of it's viability?
Who says that? Conneaut sure, but, you know closed and all. I never hear anyone say that Kennywood or Knoebels aren't worth the visit. And seeing as how they're open, I suppose they're viable, dontcha think?
Charles Nungester said:
It's not that that gets me Rob, It's the CP and Dorney are viable and worth a visit and Knoebels, Kennywood and Conneaut aren't mentality.
I hear that. It's the same reason I have two Macs and an iPhone. I'll pay the premium, and I'm reminded of the why whenever I use my girlfriend's computer or hear her talk about issues with her phone.
Lord Gonchar said:
As a consumer, I find more value in a higher priced/more perk filled experience than a lower priced, run-of-the-mill experience.
In the words of Mr. Lebowski, "Get a job, sir!" :)
Lord Gonchar throws a gigantic softball:
I wish my bank account had 7 figures in it, but it's probably not worth my time to think about or discuss because it's not going to magically happen.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
I'm not for censorship (I never bought into the talk that this site is heavily censored, which is why I prefer to be here rather than RRC), and I sure as hell don't want dilluted conversations because I happen to like the strong words and heated debates.. it boils down to certain debates being re-directed before they have a chance to begin.
That's the best way I can put it into words, but I'm not sure if it's working...
*** Edited 8/16/2007 8:19:10 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
And get this, I can love those places and still love Cedar Point and Universal Orlando. It's a crazy world, eh?
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Charles Nungester said:
Your Idea is full of holes
Yeah, full of holes. Because there's absolutely no service in existence where people pay more than they technically have to for a better experience. What was I possibly thinking!?
This might work well for you now while you have kids and stuff but what about fifteen years from now when You want to visit that same park and it's not 100 dollars, It's 500 dollars for you to have one day at a park with everything you want and no waits.
My smart-ass answer? It'll be even easier because we won't be paying for two kids.
My real answer? Inflation is a fact of life. Things cost more now than they did before and they'll cost more later than they do now. The nice thing is that applies to income as well and generally things stay in scale.
Seriously, just 7 or 8 years ago you could get into HW for $22. Now it's $38.
Are you still going?
Exactly! And you'll keep going when it hits $40, then $50 and eventually $60.
I already got that at Knoebels. $35 last time I checked.
And not worth it to me.
See, we're all different, Chuck. Just because you like the parks you do and find value in them doesn't mean everyone does. One the same note it doesn't mean nobody else does either.
I'd say the same applies to where I find value. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean no one else sees it either.
Charles Nungester said:Really, Standing 1.5-3 hours in line for each of a parks star attractions has no interest to me and I shouldn't have to pay extra to cut. Those parks should have more things to do if the crowds warrant it and not remove 3 attractions for one new one.
Here is where you are wrong, at big parks star attractions will always have 1.5-3 hour lines on a summer Saturday, the beauty is in what isnt considered a "star attraction" there but would be at smaller parks for instance at CP Magnum, Mantis, Wicked Twister and Gemini could be "the attraction" at smaller parks, at CP they are after thoughts and usually have a short wait regardless of what day you go on. Big parks attract big crowds, and the average Joe who only goes to one park once a year is going to make darn sure he rides the "big rides" since this type of person is the vast majority of population you get big lines. It wouldn't matter how many other rides there were at CP, so long as TTD, MF, Raptor and Maverick are considered must rides there waits will be 1.5-3 hours because people only have a limited time in the park.
2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando
Jeff said:
But that's just it, you can't even lump people into pro and against Conneaut/small park group. That's the kind of crap that has been plaguing this country for years now. "If you're not for it, you're against it."
I definitely agree with that. It's why I can never declare my political alliance, because I don't have one. I can buy into some of the things that Democrats support, but not all of them. Same for Republicans. I can't- and won't- claim to be either.
But around here, it does seem that people get lumped into two groups. The people that talk about Cedar Point are all business-minded and have no appreciation for smaller parks. The people that talk about love of Conneaut are all unrealistic people who never set foot in a theme park. Am I getting warm? It's a shame, but that's what happens. And that's where many of these debates originate- people's comments are matched up against what we think those people support. I won't admit that I'm not guilty of that from time to time, which is one of the reasons why I jump into the business threads more than I used to. I'm under no obligation to consider what those people are saying, but I want to open my mind.
*** Edited 8/16/2007 8:25:48 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
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