Say Goodbye? Laser at DP
I was going to stay out of this one once I left this office this afternoon because I'm pretty sick of these pissing matches about fact versus opinion and business versus passion. I'll admit that I'm partially to blame for all that happening- that way no one can accuse me of getting all hypocritical here and pretending that I'm standing on some platform elevated about everyone else. I just feel the need to come out and say this one thing.
There are a lot of armchair CEO's around here... people that believe they either have the inside track because of what they may happen to know or have the ability to see things as others are unable. That's all well and good- every hobby is comprised of people that think they know they best way for things to get done, and in this hobby there are apparantly plenty of people that believe they know enough to justify a park's every price increase, every ride removal and every change in operations. But for every person that thinks they're an amusement industry genius, there's a person that doesn't give a s**t about the business aspect because they're too busy enjoying amusement parks for what they are. What's bothersome to those people (like myself) is that they're constantly scolded for being passionate about amusement parks and failing to consider things like profit and stock value by the people that do consider those things.
So what if Conneaut hasn't proven itself to be a viable business? Does that make it wrong for people to enjoy talking about it and hoping the story has a happy ending?
Maybe Kings Island's decision to remove their flying scooters didn't impact attendance in a negative way, but why shouldn't people be able to complain about that years later because they were an integral part of the Kings Island experience?
With a new Impulse coaster coming, Dorney's Laser might not be needed, but what about people that loathe the changes made to the park and see that coaster as something important in the face of change?
Sure, it can be argued- quite successfully- that those people make up a very minute portion of a park's overall attendance, but this website the place for that small group to gather and talk. If someone wants to come here and talk about the business side of things, there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but why try to make the people whose enthusiasm is driven by passion feel stupid? And that's exactly what is happening with some of the comments that are made- and the way they are made. Again, it goes back to being about ther way things are said. There is a right way and a wrong way, and I don't believe for a second that the people accused of saying things the wrong way aren't aware of what they're doing.
Cliche as it sounds, why can't we all just get along? After all, this is Coasterbuzz.
millrace said:Britney Spears has a larger following than the local band I saw on Saturday night. Is that an indication of which one has better quality music?
No, but it is an indication of which one should have a major label contract. I love Seven Color Sky, but they're not Warner Bros material, unless it's still 1985.
I've been to Conneaut once. I absolutely loved Blue Streak. I really did. To the point that I'd say it's worth a trip just for that ride. I think that if you don't go there, you're really missing out on a classic.
It's one of the 10-best wooden coasters I've been on IF it's taken care of and had track work. These days, that's a BIG "if." Other than that, though, the place is a permanent carnival. Nothing exciting, nothing quaint about it. I'll go back only if I'm in the area anyhow. I'd feel bad if it went away, but really only for that one ride.
I've been to Dorney once. It has a bunch of cookie cutter rides that are good, but not great, with a true classic, albeit overbraked, wooden coaster. No atmosphere at all, nothing exciting, nothing quaint about it. I'll go back, but only if I'm in the area anyhow.
I guess what I'm saying is that they both have some value, but then again, they both suck.
You can take this to mean that I think you're all right on some level, but I tend to think that everyone's wrong but me.
P.S. Laser was average, but in no means a deal-breaker. If they're selling it, at least it'll end up somewhere.
Edited to make more sense.
*** Edited 8/16/2007 3:07:52 AM UTC by kpjb***
Hi
As for all of this other nonsense, does it really matter that much? One person's opinion vs. another's. Who cares?
Coasterdom.com
I don't hate Dorney, but I don't get overly enthused about it either. I could head toward Dorney just as easily as toward Knoebels or Hershey. It would probably take less time to travel to DP than KG, IF (and it's a big if) traffic isn't an issue. DP is just a few miles closer to me than HP is. Maybe it's that I absolutely hate driving that stretch of I-78 from Hamburg to Fogelsville. Or that in general I'm not fond of the Valley attitude (Lehigh Valley that is). But I've only been doing Dorney once a year for the past 3-4 years-- usually for Halloween.
I like the coasters there apparently more than some people here do. I don't think Hydra was a waste, I think Steel Force and Talon are great coasters. Laser's not a bad ride. I might be able to pull the train up the lift hill faster than it goes now, but it's a pretty good ride from there.
So what's with the Dorney threads lately that make people turn so nasty? Well except for the ones who were already that way. :)
Oh. My. God.
millrace said:
This is about the belittling of one person's opinion because it doesn't match your opinion.
Why is it that every time someone disagrees with you it's belittling or you're getting picked on or whatever? Chuck's a big boy. He can stand up for himself. And if I disagree with him, or anyone else, then that's that. Welcome to the Internet, where people will tell you you're wrong, and hopefully tell you why they think so. If you can't deal with that, step away from the keyboard and pull the wire out of the wall.
On the other hand, if you have something to contribute more than "your disagreement is a character flaw," by all means, type on. I'm so tired of all this victim crap. Debate the topic.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
I like the coasters there apparently more than some people here do.
I'm with you, RGB. (another one of those rare instances :) )
Talon's still my favorite inverted coaster. I'm pretty sure I put Steel Force in my top 20 in Mitch's steel poll last year - same with Thunderhawk and the wood poll. Hydra's a solid ride. Nothing touches the sheer forces of the loops on Laser. Hell, I even dig the Dragon coaster.
Then again, (and here's where I get to disagree with you :) ) - I'd drive right past Hershey and Knoebels to get to Dorney...and have!
But anyway, suppose DP is trying to get rid of Laser. Would it only be because they're getting the new impulse? Is that enough justification-- do they think they can only have (maintain) so many coasters? What other reasons could there be? Maybe it doesn't have huge lines, but it doesn't sit idle or send out half empty trains all day long. and if they do remove it, what goes there in its place (it's already sitting on pavement)?
millrace said:
Jeff said:
This is so not complicated...Then why are you making it so complicated? This is about the belittling of one person's opinion because it doesn't match your opinion. Chuck finds Conneaut more of a draw than Dorney. That's it. Why is it not ok for Chuck to dislike Dorney but perfectly fine for you to dislike Conneaut?
Britney Spears has a larger following than the local band I saw on Saturday night. Is that an indication of which one has better quality music?
Whats complicated about it is. He don't like Conneaut based on others views of it and won't draw his own opinion.
Im not picking on Jeff, Trying to be arrogant and have pointed it out before. Some of the biggest surprises came from just VISITING some of these parks with NO BIG DRAW attraction. Adventurland Iowa, That place is packed with things to do, the rides are operated as they were designed too and theres a assortment of odd and popular rides.
Williams Grove was a falling down, hippy run park in the middle of nowhere, That combined with Dutch Wonderland made for a fun day and neither park has a DRAW Attraction IMHO.
Bout the only things that ruin a park for me is bad atmosphere or bad operations. I can have fun in a two ride park as long as theres nothing going on to ruin it.
Have fun at ALL parks, Not just the big ones.
Chuck
Truer words were never spoken. Theres no such thing as CP is a amusement park and Conneaut isn't (Cept maybe that the latter is closed) mainly by those thinkng that way
Jeff said:
millrace said:
Chuck's a big boy. He can stand up for himself. And if I disagree with him, or anyone else, then that's that. Welcome to the Internet, where people will tell you you're wrong, and hopefully tell you why they think so. If you can't deal with that, step away from the keyboard and pull the wire out of the wall.On the other hand, if you have something to contribute more than "your disagreement is a character flaw," by all means, type on. I'm so tired of all this victim crap. Debate the topic.
True dat Jeff, I disagree with you but have no right to say your crazy for your beliefs. However Id just rather see that you had visited a park and formed your own opinion. you might be surprised as I have several times.MIA IMHO is a big carnival with a couple wood coasters, Did I have fun? Yeah and tons of it but other than timbers, Theres no real draw.
Chuck. done with this thread, I just think Laser is a rare and excellent coaster. Sure after the loops it's not overly special but like Shockwave at SFGAM it was forceful and unique and to me, VERY FUN vs many simular rides at different parks.
Jeff said:
Welcome to the Internet, where people will tell you you're wrong, and hopefully tell you why they think so. If you can't deal with that, step away from the keyboard and pull the wire out of the wall.
Just because this is the internet doesn't mean it's okay for people to act like jerks. The only thing that makes internet conversation different from face-to-face conversation is the fact that the most outspoken, sarcastic loudmouths are the wussies that wouldn't dare confront anyone with an aggressive tone in person. And I'm not directing that entirely at you Jeff, so you can't accuse me of trying to knock down the webmaster or whatever you usually say I'm doing when I respond to something you say.
Like I said, there's a right way to say things and a wrong way to say things, and it only takes a few words to make an opinion sound like an attack. This isn't about hurt feelings, it's about creating and maintaining an atmosphere where people can express an opinion without being ridiculed. And while I'm on the subject of that, I might as well add that it's about maintaining an open mind and, at the very least, taking into consideration what the other person is saying. I know I'm guilty of that- I often get stuck behind what I'm defending and fail to consider the other person might actually be on to something. A lot of us are guilty of that. I'm not saying we all get warm and cuddly, but this is a discussion forum, and we should all focus on discussion.
*** Edited 8/16/2007 1:37:31 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Top Thrill Dragster said:
It might not actually be Laser. I've ridden a clone of Laser a the Canadiation National Exhibition years ago, aka a carnival. It might just be a carnival clone, just the Wildcat ones.
I'm pretty sure the one that was at the CNE is the one from Conklin Shows that I mentioned earlier. I think there were one or two years when they brought it up from Florida.
What I don't understand is, with a relatively small number of coasters for its size park, why CF would choose to get rid of Laser, if that is indeed the case? It still gets good ridership, I'm led to believe, so unless it's becoming a maintenance nightmare it just doesn't make any sense.
Ensign Smith, who wants to talk about himself in the third person too!!! :)
My author website: mgrantroberts.com
Charles Nungester said:
However Id just rather see that you had visited a park and formed your own opinion. you might be surprised as I have several times.
You don't have to visit a park to form your own opinion, when your opinion is that there is nothing for you to do there. You like to point out all the time that there is nothing tfor you at Cedar Point, and now Dorney Park. Good for you, for the rest of us there is plenty to do at both parks.
Charles Nungester said:
Chuck. done with this thread, I just think Laser is a rare and excellent coaster. Sure after the loops it's not overly special but like Shockwave at SFGAM it was forceful and unique and to me, VERY FUN vs many simular rides at different parks.
Thats cool, not everyone agrees with you that there is nothing else to do at this park anymore. They could do a lot worse than removing an old, mediocre travelling carnival ride that is in an area of the park that needs some draw. The impulse is going to give it that, there is no other impulse in the immediate area that I know of and it will be a new experience for Dorney's crowd.
Wrong. I don't like it because I'm not going to drive more than two hours to go on one coaster. Some of you seem to think that you deserve some kind of badge of honor because you'll drive all over the country to ride some old ride in the middle of nowhere. If that's your M.O., good for you, but it's not a good use of my time, nor does it satisfy any strong desires of my own.
Charles Nungester said:
He don't like Conneaut based on others views of it and won't draw his own opinion.
And have I mentioned that I'm apparently not the only one who feels this way? See: Conneaut Lake is not open.
Your skin thickness is not my concern. Nobody here is saying you or anyone else is full of crap. If you disagree, do so and explain why. Do you need to be coddled and told that it's OK you disagree?
Rob Ascough said:
Like I said, there's a right way to say things and a wrong way to say things, and it only takes a few words to make an opinion sound like an attack. This isn't about hurt feelings, it's about creating and maintaining an atmosphere where people can express an opinion without being ridiculed.
It's not about that at all. People aren't obligated to agree with you or even consider what your position is. If they did, there'd be nothing to talk about.
And while I'm on the subject of that, I might as well add that it's about maintaining an open mind and, at the very least, taking into consideration what the other person is saying.
You know, I run another site with a guy who couldn't possibly be more opposite of me in the political sense. We got at it all of the time on the PointBuzz forum, and we're still friends in real life. I think Gonch is full of crap about half of the time, and yet I invited him to be a moderator and on the podcast. The reason this all works is because we don't care if the other disagrees.
And you want to talk about real life? This all reminds me of the average code review we do at work, where we basically tear down each other and tell each other what they did was totally wrong. Somehow we manage to go out drinking after work anyway. But we never have discussions about how polite we're supposed to be either as a defense for opinions.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Jeff said:
Some of you seem to think that you deserve some kind of badge of honor because you'll drive all over the country to ride some old ride in the middle of nowhere. If that's your M.O., good for you...
I honestly don't know how you concocted that one. I have never heard anyone talk about a park like Conneaut as something akin to an Xbox Live Achievement Point. All the supporters of small, off-the-beaten-path amusement parks that I know of put forth the time, effort and money because they truly enjoy those parks. You're so far off-base on that one that it's not even funny.
Your skin thickness is not my concern. Nobody here is saying you or anyone else is full of crap. If you disagree, do so and explain why. Do you need to be coddled and told that it's OK you disagree?
It's not about skin-thickness and being coddled, it's about talking to people with a tone that isn't sarcastic and condescending. IMHO, people that do that really have no point to make and simply get off on irritating people by being stubborn and obstinate.
And you want to talk about real life? This all reminds me of the average code review we do at work, where we basically tear down each other and tell each other what they did was totally wrong. Somehow we manage to go out drinking after work anyway.
That's fine, if that's the kind of environment you're used to. And if that works, I'm happy for you and the success that comes from it. But that's not the kind of environment most people are used to. Don't use that as justification for tearing people down because a large part of the population knows nothing of that technique.
You're right, no one is obligated to see someone else's side of an argument, but that makes me wonder why you would even bother posting in a discussion forum. To me, an open mind is a prerequisite for posting in a discussion forum. What's the point of discussing anything if you don't want to consider what the other person is saying? That's just weird.
*** Edited 8/16/2007 2:40:11 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Jeff said:
I think Gonch is full of crap about half of the time, and yet I invited him to be a moderator and on the podcast.
I would have said two-thirds, but I'm amazed we came that close to agreeing on something ;)
You make it sound like a trip to Conneaut is something to be suffered rather than enjoyed. Funny, I felt that way about my last trip to Orlando. :)
cue the reminder that Conneaut is not open to prove the superiority of your vacation choices... *** Edited 8/16/2007 2:49:22 PM UTC by millrace***
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