Pence criticizes DeSantis over Disney interference

Desantis’ lawyer when asked in court to define woke stated, “The belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them.”

So one definition in court and a completely different definition when speaking to his base.

Is it though? I mean, even without any word association with “liberalism” or whatever, I think a lot of rigrh leaning base would disagree that there are systematic injustices. It’s kind of nuts, but I think it’s true.

I feel like I'm starting to understand the disconnect a little, even if I still think it's unreasonable. The first part is certainly circumstance and the inability to see the world from someone else's shoes. For example, a lot of people wholly buy-in to the "American dream" myth that suggests we live in a true meritocracy. If you just work hard enough, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, or whatever, you'll make it. They don't see (or maybe don't want to) why a Black man born to a poor family in Mississippi has barriers that a white man born to a wealthy family in the suburbs does not. The other part, and I can't follow this logic, is the bizarre idea that things like racism and misogyny persist because we talk about them. I've seen the pay disparity between men and women as a manager (and forced corrections). We've seen countless stories in the news about Black families getting different house appraisals than white for the same house, or resumes less likely considered for people with "foreign sounding" names. This isn't a chicken-and-egg problem, it's cause-and-effect. Institutional bias exists, and it disadvantages people.

So with simple observation and the smallest bit of critical thinking, you can see it's real. Why would you not want this to be better? The only reason that I can think of is because of some warped perception that correcting it comes at your expense.

Jeff:

They don't see (or maybe don't want to) why a Black man born to a poor family in Mississippi has barriers that a white man born to a wealthy family in the suburbs has.

Either there's a typo here or I'm not understanding your point.

Along with the idea that some people feel everyone starts on the same playing field for achieving the American dream, I believe there's some that are okay that the playing field isn't level because that's the way it's always been and that trying to improve it for those at a disadvantage comes at their expense. I also don't get the people who feel like anything DEI related is meant to make them feel guilty for something they didn't do.

Yeah, typo. Replace "has" with "does not."

You touch on something else though, that some think on equality as a zero sum game. It's not. We as a society have made choices about our priorities. We could make a meaningful dent in poverty, and I won't be less well off, but we don't choose that. I mean, look at the impact that the child tax credit checks (during the Trump administration, no less) had on child poverty. The Census Bureau reported that 2.9 million kids were temporarily brought out of poverty.

The standard reaction to this is, "How do you pay for that," and no answer is acceptable. Especially if you suggest slaughtering sacred cows like military spending or oil subsidies. Like I said, we make choices.

In my experience, a particularly insidious rationale for why <minority> has barriers instead of advantages is “because they’re different.” whether it’s culture, intrinsic physical attribute, or something else. e.g. “<people group> are just like that.”

It’s super hard to control for all the other factors to disprove this, and it would be extemely “inconvenient” if we rejected it so I think it persists.

Time for the rubber to meet the road. From the bill, post anything that matches up to what you say it does. Otherwise, you're only interested in narratives.

At the risk of feeding the troll, here's the relevant text from the proposal (emphasis added):

6A-10.081 Principles of Professional Conduct for the
Education Profession in Florida

PURPOSE AND EFFECT: To provide ethical guidelines for
Florida Educators to practice and be held accountable for, if
there is a violation of the principles. The Commissioner may
pursue disciplinary action against the license of an educator
who violates the principles.

SUMMARY: The amendment prohibits classroom instruction
to students in pre-kindergarten through grade 3 on sexual
orientation or gender identity. For grades 4 through 12,
instruction on sexual orientation or gender identity is prohibited
unless such instruction is either expressly required by state
academic standards as adopted in Rule 6A-1.09401, F.A.C., or
is part of a reproductive health course or health lesson for which
a student’s parent has the option to have his or her student not
attend.

So there you go, from the version of the proposal dated March 16 of this year. They're trying to create a chilling effect around discussions of sexual orientation and gender identity. Hence the "don't say gay" moniker.

extremecoasterdad:

Otherwise, you're only interested in narratives.

The bill only exists because of a narrative.

"I am right and you are obligated to prove me wrong."

No, I'm not obligated to do jack s***. I don't owe you any of my time, particularly because I know you aren't arguing in good faith. You are just arguing, and in the immortal words of Homey D. Clown: I don't think so.

extremecoasterdad:

From the bill, post anything that matches up to what you say it does.

You keep moving the goal posts. You said it was reported on incorrectly. Specifically that the NYT got something wrong. But you didn't say what, nor did you provide evidence. Now you're suggesting that something someone here said was wrong, and to prove that they're not, without quoting any person in particular or the part they allegedly got wrong.

You suck at debate and critical thinking.

My question, dj Daemon, is why you want to talk sex or gender identity with 6-8 year old children? Hence the reason why we are calling you out. Children that age have no idea about or any concept of sexuality or gender identity. Also, in your own quote, the word gay is never used. Also, only talking about sex in an instructional way from 4th grade on has always been the case.

It's not moving the goal post. They incorrectly reported on many subjects, which I posted about earlier. It's not just the NY Times, which you seem oddly obsessed with Jeff. You also talk about how you don't want Christianity imposed on you or anyone, yet imposing your beliefs about gender identity is ok. There's nothing scientific that says any man or woman is born with the opposite sex's brain in the wrong body.

Yeah, DEI is complete horse****. It's actually racist. You want people hired based on skin color or sexual identity instead of actual qualifications. Case in point...Pete Buttigieg. He is a failed mayor from South Bend, Indiana where Domino's Pizza had to start a fundraiser to fix potholes in a small town that he ignored. Hired as transportation secretary based on the fact that he's gay. Or how about the wildly untalented press secretary who strings sentences together about as well as the Alzheimer's Patient in the oval office? Or how about Sam Brinton, who stole luggage from airports more than once? Or the head of DEI Biden hired where emails were discovered that disabled people, straight white males, were being discriminated against? There's an ongoing investigation going on as we speak.

Or would you like to discuss the trans student who shot up a Christian school? You're all for discussing mental health issues until it comes to gender dsyphoria. Why is that?

Also, when did the black community decide that they need the pasty white guy from Florida can speak for them?

extremecoasterdad:

My question, dj Daemon, is why you want to talk sex or gender identity with 6-8 year old children? Hence the reason why we are calling you out. Children that age have no idea about or any concept of sexuality or gender identity.

Well when you don't talk to them about it, obviously they have no idea. My kid has known gay couples his entire life. When he was 3, he wondered about why one couple didn't have a "mommy," and I explained that sometimes two boys love each other and that's a family too. Then he was in a wedding with a trans woman at age 6, and we had a brief discussion about that. He had the facts, and he moved on almost immediately.

So yes, I do talk to my kid about it because I'm a responsible parent who doesn't want my kid to grow up to be an ignorant bigot. I sure as hell don't need the government declaring limits to what he learns.

extremecoasterdad:
They incorrectly reported on many subjects, which I posted about earlier.

No, you made an unqualified generalization. Nice try. Scapegoating "the media" is lazy.

extremecoasterdad:
You also talk about how you don't want Christianity imposed on you or anyone, yet imposing your beliefs about gender identity is ok.

Literally no one is doing that. Get a grip. If you want to be willfully ignorant about gender identity, absolutely no one is stopping you from doing that. People who exercise basic human respect, however, are not going to stand by and let people who think like you deny the existence of others just because they want to be willfully ignorant. This is no different than classic Mockingbird racism. You can have whatever beliefs you want, but they can't infringe on the rights of others. That someone "believes" in gender identity has absolutely zero impact on you in any way.

extremecoasterdad:
You want people hired based on skin color or sexual identity instead of actual qualifications.

Literally no one wants this either. If you weren't so busy fearing people different than you, then you would understand that DEI is fundamentally about eliminating institutional bias. People are still hired for their qualifications, but the movement is to make sure that they're not disqualified for their gender or color of their skin. Because that still happens every day. You choose not to understand that.

Your constant rants about how disadvantaged you feel because of all the things intended to level the playing field are tired. You're so busy worrying about the world crumbling around you in fear that you can't for a moment step into someone else's shoes to understand why the toxic nonsense you're contributing to causes real harm to others. "Hence the reason why we are calling you out."

This is a waste of time but I am procrastinating.

extremecoasterdad:

There's nothing scientific that says any man or woman is born with the opposite sex's brain in the wrong body.

There's so much science.

extremecoasterdad:

It's actually racist. You want people hired based on skin color or sexual identity instead of actual qualifications.

No. You assuming that a gay or person of color isn't qualified is the racist part.

extremecoasterdad:
Or would you like to discuss the trans student who shot up a Christian school?

Are you actually up for that discussion? Guns are the leading cause of death in children. More than 60% of suicide attempts among LGBQ people happen within five years of realizing they are LGBQ. If you care about kids as much as you say you do why don't we do something about guns and make the world an easier place for queer kids to exist in?

Jeff:

Well when you don't talk to them about it, obviously they have no idea. My kid has known gay couples his entire life. When he was 3, he wondered about why one couple didn't have a "mommy," and I explained that sometimes two boys love each other and that's a family too. Then he was in a wedding with a trans woman at age 6, and we had a brief discussion about that. He had the facts, and he moved on almost immediately.

So yes, I do talk to my kid about it because I'm a responsible parent who doesn't want my kid to grow up to be an ignorant bigot. I sure as hell don't need the government declaring limits to what he learns.

Just as a quick point of clarification: I think the focus of extremecoasterdad’s comment was talking to the child about his or her own gender/sexual identity. It wasn’t about talking to the child about other people’s identities.

I’m actually inclined to agree on not letting a school district talk to a child about about their own identities at such a young age. They’re too young to be worrying about stuff like that in their own lives. It’s one thing to have the conversation about adults and their choices, but about their own lives? Regardless of where opinions fall on the ideological spectrum, why should any kid in the bottom half of elementary school be worrying about that stuff anyway? I don’t recall sexual education even coming up in my schooling until 6th grade.

extremecoasterdad:

Children that age have no idea about or any concept of sexuality or gender identity.

Actually the process of a child exploring ideas of gender identity starts at around age two, and gender identity is solidified, on average, by age 4.

But what do I know?

Just a point of clarification, the Nashville shooter was a transgender adult that attended the school as a student. I think that distinction is important. This was not a confused teenager or student. That said, this incident was the manna from heaven that some on the right have been praying for that distracts from the actual debate. Even if the student's identity was worth debating, we've gotten to a point where this one incident is an incredibly small sample of the actual problem.

sirloindude:

Regardless of where opinions fall on the ideological spectrum, why should any kid in the bottom half of elementary school be worrying about that stuff anyway? I don’t recall sexual education even coming up in my schooling until 6th grade.

Unlike "traditional" sex ed where we're really talking about sexual contact which (hopefully) isn't on the table until middle school or later, when it comes to sexual identity (gender, orientation, etc.) the impacts and effects bear out much sooner. Gender and sexual identity can play out in elementary school and so should be taught (appropriately) in elementary school.

sirloindude:

I’m actually inclined to agree on not letting a school district talk to a child about about their own identities at such a young age. They’re too young to be worrying about stuff like that in their own lives.

What Andy said. Schools have never been handing out questionnaires about whether one feels like a boy or a girl. It's generally the children that seek to start those discussions, and it is absolutely the responsibility of the school to react. You'd be unsurprised to learn that at young ages, that reaction starts with a call to the parents.

These laws being passed are not to "protect" anyone. When a law explicitly prohibits a school from using a child's pronouns relative to their identity, the law is doing two things. First, it is telling the child that they are not legitimate. Second, it makes it OK for others to deny their legitimacy. To OhioStater's point (or Dr. OhioStater, PhD, if you will), this is as real as it gets. I'm sure he could also quote the literature about the rates of suicide and self-harm among trans kids, and the isolation caused by this very public hostility toward them.

Girls commonly begin menstruating around age 10-12, and often earlier, so the idea that we should be "protecting" kids that age from relevant education is patently ridiculous.