No Coaster Con-SFGAM ?s
lata, jeremy
--feeling especially butt-nuggetty this week
Sean Flaharty said:
However, I have a hunch that my plans will be booked for the first part of Saturday evening. As a matter of fact, I think a lot of people aren't going to be going out right after the Con.Hmmmm
Time to get this discussion back on track.
Sean, thanks for the heads up - it makes me even happier that I'm registered for NCC.
Mike
#1 - I do remember stating above that I was not done give you your "proof". Also you asked for proof about how the safety standards where less in other countries than here in the states, not how to maintain the rides. As stated in 316.210.1, the ride must be checked by a qualified inspector at least once annually. I would say that would be what you were asking for.
No, sorry, that's not what I'm looking for. You know what? You're not going to find anything because there are no laws in the United States that dictate how amusement rides should be maintained! There are guidelines (see ASTM) and local laws (such as how long records should be retained), but there are no federal or state guidelines that dictate how rides should be maintained. The manufacturer provides guidelines that show exactly how rides should be maintained.
ASTM (www.astm.org)
F698-94(2000) Standard Specification for Physical Information to be Provided for Amusement Rides and Devices1.2 This specification does not apply to the sale or transfer of used amusement rides and devices.
I guess that would explain why those countries buy so many used rides.
========
F846-92(2003)Standard Guide for Testing Performance of Amusement Rides and Devices1.1 This guide covers the basic tests which shall be conducted on amusement rides and devices during prototype development, installation or erection, following major modifications, and during normal operation to determine that the performance of a given ride or device meets the manufacturer's specified design criteria.
Thanks, but I'm quite familiar with ASTM guidelines. Note that ASTM provides guidelines and standards, but they are not laws. What makes you think that the United States follows ASTM guidelines better than any other country when it comes to maintaining amusement rides?
#2 - The only thing I have to go from on Schwarkopf roller coasters is the what the Zambezi Zinger had to go through during the final seasons - if the Whizzer is not having to go through the same thing then I applaud SFGAm for finding the miracle elixir that is saving the ride from wearing parts out.
Ah, I didn't know you're the Maintenance Director for Worlds of Fun, sorry. I'd also like to point out that Zambezi Zinger is still operating-- at a park in a country that can afford to pay Euro prices for parts.
#3 - I was just pointing out that you are a troll that's all. If you would like I can show you several of your posts that proove that.
If pointing out flaws in other people's arguments and logic makes me a troll, then I suppose I would be a troll. But where are the definitions for troll? Can you direct me to a place that clearly defines what a troll is? If I'm violating the terms of service of this website then I invite the moderators to close this thread. I'd also like to point out that the ToS asks you to respect the English language, but several of your typos and misspellings fail to do that.
Ok here is my challenge to you prone. SInce you are obviously in cahoots with the major players of the industry. Give me exact links or documents stating that it is indeed more expensive to maintain a new coaster than say Whizzer. I also want to see some documentation that shows that is indeed not expensive to maintain the Whizzer. And oen last thing, I want to see documentation of where you came up with the prices for parts that you quoted me earlier. Then if you can (and these have to be a credible source), I will eat crow.
While I do have access to several parts lists for different manufacturers, I don't have the means to share them with you. You might want to use your IAAPA membership to obtain that information. While I used Carowinds as an example for parts prices, it turns out someone linked me to a page showing parts prices for similar rides at Paramount's Great America.
http://www.greatamericanthrills.com/files/071403_68.jpg
I quoted $200 and $500 respectively, but I was close.
I'm done with you. The facts remain that 1) There is no way to prove that parks in other countries maintain their rides any better or worse than parks in the United States. Remember the Big Thunder Mountain accident? It looks like Disney had some maintenance problems there. And what about your own Worlds of Fun? I seem to recall some trouble with Orient Express a few years ago.
2) There's no way to prove that older rides are more costly to maintain than newer rides. Use logic here, and compare Whizzer to Raging Bull or V2. The wheels on Whizzer are much smaller and the trains use fewer wheels than Raging Bull. Raging Bull's wheels are much bigger (thus more expensive) and there are more wheels on the train. Then let's compare the price of a drive motor on Whizzer to a LIM on V2. What do you think costs more? Sure, it can be harder to obtain parts for older rides, especially if the ride was supplied by a manufacturer who has since gone out of business. But Schwarzkopf parts are still widely available and affordable for any park who needs them. Just ask the parks who are successfully maintaining older Schwarzkopf rides and the suppliers who distribute the parts.
(insert rolling eyes here)
Joe "go prone coaster!" C.
EDIT: $838 for a magnet!! =-o Wow, I get free ones for my fridge all the time, who knew they were that expensive. ;) (see the link to know wtf I am talking about) *** Edited 1/8/2004 11:48:36 PM UTC by Legendary***
Back on topic now; Everyone going to No Coaster Con will have a pleasant surprize after the event closes. I wish I was going this year.
Wood - anything else is an imitation *** Edited 1/9/2004 1:04:07 AM UTC by Thrillerman***
Swoosh said:
Ok, I could just take your words that you just posted and use them against you but I am going to be the bigger man and let this drop. I showed you what you wanted and yet it still wasn't good enough for you. Thing is however I don't have to make you believe a darn word I say. Have fun continuing on without me.(insert rolling eyes here)
Bring it!
http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail1392.htm
There's the old Zambezi Zinger, which is now operating in Columbia.
B) Rcdb shows at least 5 operating Jet Star 1s, 5 operating Jet Star 2s, and 3 operating Jumbo Jets, and 2 operating City Jets. All of these rides are similar and can probably share parts.
C) Do you think Intamin should stop making parts for Dragster because it's the only ride of its kind? Or even Xcelerator for that matter? Surely there's only one place to get launch cables for those rides...
B.) Dont try to argue a point unless you have proof. Saying "probably share parts" is not good enough reason to think that it is easy to find parts for Whizzer. For all you know that dont share the same parts.
C.) Why would an existing company not supply parts to a ride they are trying to sell more of? Atleast in my arguement the company doesnt exist anymore and they aren't trying to build more of the speed racers.
B) Please note that the Jet Star 2, Jet Star 3, City Jet and Speed Racers all run exactly the same cars. The only difference is that the Jet Stars/City Jets typically ran individual 6-person cars, while the Speed Racers ran trains composed of several 6-person cars. They all run exactly the same cars, though. For proof, please point your browser to- http://schwarzkopf.coaster.net/achterbahnen-detail-wagen-GF.htm Scroll down a little and you'll find this quote- "In 1970, these vehicles were introduced on the new "Jet Star 2" rollercoaster. They can carry up to six persons. Fitted with an onboard electro-motor, these cars are self driven. Up to four units were connected to form early trains. This on "Jumbo Jet", "City Jet" and "Speedracer". "
Note the original Jet Star model (found at Indiana Beach, The Great Escape, etc.) is the only one in the series to run the 4-person toboggan-style cars. Also note that all Schwarzkopf Jet Star Models (1, 2, and 3), Speed Racers, and City Jets share the same Schwarzkopf braking system (skid brakes).
C) Ever hear of Wieland Schwarzkopf? He's still in business suppling parts for his father's rides, rehabbing old rides, and selling used rides. Proof? Go to IAAPA (maybe you and Swoosh can go together since he's an IAAPA member) and talk to him, or read any of the various trade magazines out there that run Wieland Schwarzkopf ads. Or, visit http://schwarzkopf.coaster.net/wielandschwarzkopfGF.htm
There are a lot of old Schwarzkopf rides left-- not just Jet Stars and Jumbo Jets-- and they all need parts.
Try again.
(SF)Great American:
You bring up some good points, and I think you're right on with a lot of it. Actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if what you stated was along the lines of what SF was thinking. However, I think it's important to point out an obvious question: "Is it really worth the risk of upsetting your guests?" We agree that it the mouse will have a capacity problem, and that people waiting in line probably are going to get upset at waiting for so long. So my question is whether it's worth upsetting your guests and hoping the ride turns their mood around? Giant Drop is a good example to use capacity-wise, but not in other respects. Drop rides are inherintly low capacity (sure, SFGAm could have installed an S&S multi-tower ride, but there's cost-effective problems for not much more capacity there). Family rides do not have to be low capacity, it just turns out the one SF picked for SFGAm is. So the question is, why not install a higher capacity ride instead? That would ensure happy families who wouldn't have to grow upset at waiting in line before riding.
VerticalFanatic: Your arguments supporting new ride crews are off. There's absolutely no reason a new ride shouldn't be able to crank people through like an old one. Your arguments basically consist of pointing out the fact that crews have never worked on the ride before, and are thus unfamiliar (and slow). But that's true for all rides on opening day. The majority of employees are new. And one new and unfamiliar employee slows the whole crew down. Ride capacity improves as the season progresses and employees become more comfortable with their jobs. Bottom line is that everyone is in the same boat, new ride or old. And while management may be trying out new things with a new ride to maximize capacity, a park should have its *best* (most experienced) crew working a new ride. Thankfully, SFGAm's S:UF crew rocked this year.
Fanatic:
You said, "Why would any company make parts for the only speed racer left? If they do Six Flags would have to pay a large amount for the parts. If i was a company making these parts I would charge alot because i would have to perform a service that i dont perfrom anymore for one customer."Prone Coaster pointed out that Whizzer is not, in fact, the only Speed Racer operating, and that the vast majority of parts used on Whizzer are used on many other Schwarzkopf rides operating world-wide. But the most obvious answer your missing is that it's simple business. Charge too much and another company will step in and undercut you. There are several companies that are in the business of supplying parts for rides, many of which are not associated with the manufacturer. Competition exists between these companies. Competition keeps prices down. Basically, if you charge too much, your customer will go elsewhere.
And finally, Swoosh:
There's no need to be rude. I don't need a critique from you on the strengths and weaknesses of my post. Especially since you clearly missed several of the key points. So let me go over them again.
1) You ask for proof that Schwarzkopf parts aren't expensive. Though you ripped ProneCoaster apart for asking for proof on your generalizations, I'll go ahead and give it to you: click here (and hopefully Adam doesn't mind that I share this here). No, I don't do SFGAm's bookkeeping. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Aside from this thread, how many times have people sarcastically asked what your position at WoF is when you spout off about it?
2) The reason speed racers, jet stars, etc are moved to other countries is because they're cheap. That's really all there is to it. It doesn't have to do with safety (safety is important to the entire industry, regardless of location of the park). How often do you hear about catastrophic accidents at countries outside the US due to lack of maintenance? How often do you here stories about parks actually in the US (like Disneyland?). Location is irrelevant. I think it's quite ignorant to assume that other countries are less "civilized" and less safe than ours.
3) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out ride capacity. It especially doesn't take much when there are identical rides operating elsewhere in the country. Not even the Reverchon mouse on the fair circuit (fair circuits notoriously having the highest capacity imaginable) came close to 900pph. Do you really think SFGAm can load and dispatch a full Reverchon mouse car in 15 seconds? Because that's what it takes for 900pph. *Half* that figure (450pph) is a heck of a lot more feasable. And a 440pph coaster in a 3million guest/year park is not, IMO, a wise choice.
-Nate
Reverchon never said 900pph for the mouse, they said 700pph.
Oh, and SFGAm hasn't had 3M people in quite some time now (See, AB for '03 which listed them right around 2.5M). ;)
Joe "how's THAT for being picky...woo!" C.
What does ANY of this have to do with No Coaster Con?
I think there's 2 pages in this thread that have been completely OFF topic... interesting.
lata, jeremy
--who rode a spinning mouse @ the VA state fair and actually liked it
But this has turned into arguing over parts for the Whizzer, for Christ's sake.
2004 will be a great year for the park AND it's visitors, no matter which way you look at it.
Low-capacity rides or not, we're getting a few rides, other parks would dream of installing. We really should be grateful, instead of demanding, dont you think? I'm not addressing anyone inparticular, just as a whole, I think our attitude towards new rides (THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE!) should change just a tad. :)
Looking forward to enjoying No-Coaster Con next weekend!
-Jeff-
I can't believe all the whining on here, as ClubXJeff stated, we are getting something new in a year where MANY of us expected to get NOTHING. last time I checked 4 is a hell of a lot better than 0.
The question of why a wild mouse instead of a big coaster? It's simple the Wild Mice cost less than 1/10 of what a big coaster costs. If it puts through 1/4 the people per hour, the park comes out ahead. *** Edited 1/9/2004 6:31:35 PM UTC by redman822***
You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)
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