Kings Island Fast Lane

At that point it'd be my part time job.

Tekwardo said:
So it's okay if someone cuts in line as long as it's free and doesn't seem like it affects me, but it is morally wrong if they pay to do it and I notice that it affects me?

Yeah.

You are just making stuff up. Who ever said that VQ was morally wrong?

(Roll eyes) You guys have gone plum mad. :)

Maybe it's about perspective. I always understood that single rider lines probably help capacity though. It probably makes the line move faster. Where would a lot of those single riders be if they were not standing in the single rider line? The regular line. They would stand in the regular line, and when it came time for them to ride, they might take up more than one seat, even though they are only one person. Single riders help the line move a little bit faster.

They help when they are really single riders, having no one else to ride with them at that time. When they are not really single riders, but are willing to occupy an empty seat, they are harming no one at all.

Single riders also help the rides capacity. At the end of the day, more people got to ride because more seats were filled. The guy with the hand clicker on Dimondback, for example, counts more riders because there are less empty seats. It has a positive effect.

Pay-to-cut, on the other hand, is not making the line move more efficiently. Capacity is not raised because of P-T-C. In some cases, it is actually lowered because of how it is implemented.

I only care about getting a good value. I want an efficiently ran park experience, in which the lines are kept moving, and I am inconvenienced as little as possible. Higher capacity creates a good value. Longer lines, no matter if it is created by VQ, PTC, or empty seats going out, creates a bad value.

...And better value means happier customers. Happier customers means more visits to the park. More visits to the park means more Cha-Ching. It's the long way around to getting higher profits, but it is the right way. We often complain about parks trying to get a fast buck instead of investing in long-lasting ventures that will pay off in the long-run.

...

I'm not going to name any names, because I don't want this to seem like a personal attack on anyone, because, frankly, I really like you guys... Dare I suggest that some people who enjoy taking advantage of line cutting systems are only thinking of themselves, and not the greater good of all of the people who visit the park? I can't figure out why other people don't feel "dirty" for using it, except that they don't care about anyone else.

And if you guys really knew me, you would probably understand where I am coming from here. I feel empathy (and hippy-like love) for just about everyone, even strangers, who I come into any kind of contact with, even just visual contact. I am beginning to think that its a disability of mine or something.

Since I definitely don't want anyone else to make my wait longer, I don't enjoy making other people's wait in line longer. It's a catch 22 for me...

Consider this:

The only way to make a single rider line work efficiently is if someone is keeping track of the empty seats and making sure that those half-empty rows get filled before the train arrives. The only way for that to happen is if the designated seat tracker is filling the shotguns in a systematic way.

The practical upshot of all this is that single rider lines, which enthusiasts seem to like, only really work in conjunction with seat assignments, which the same enthusiasts seem to hate. So which do you want? Give up something you like, or tolerate something you hate?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I have no interest in getting into the merits or impacts of the various VQ/FOL systems out there. I have seen you folks debate that issue in multiple threads. Reading debt documents at work is boring enough. I come here to get away from that for a bit. If I wanted to read that, I would just stay with the debt documents.

My only point here was that I think VQ/FOL systems are different from single rider lines. My initial post was in response to one that compared the two.

I do think there is a difference between other variables in wait times. Parks can do little to control which days are busy and which have lower attendance. They would actually love to have every day as crowded as their busiest day. They also can't control the weather. Parks would love to have folks fill the part more uniformly so as to avoid the longer lines at the front of the park at the beginning of the day. But there is only so much you can do with human nature of going on rides as they encounter them walking in the main entrance. And there are differences (subjective to some extent) in the first and last cars that make people want to wait for them that parks can't control. VQ/FOL systems are in the control of the parks which makes them different. And that impacts the fairness discussion as well. Random/uncontrollable things that are unfair are a part of life (that I can't hit a major league curveball is clearly unfair :) ). Though in the end, as everyone learned in grade school: life isn't fair so deal with it.

All that being said, as I already noted, I am in favor of FOL/VQ systems and single rider lines. But I don't think it makes sense to say that FOL/VQ systems don't negatively impact those who either don't or can't take advantage of them. They clearly do (though how much is probably difficult to pin point accurately). And implementing them is in the business judgment of any given park. And guests can take advantage of them if they think whatever is required to get there is worth it to them. Nothing evil or immoral in a park making money. Though it is interesting to me that a lot of folks who complain about parks maximizing profits with food/drink prices seem to be fine with parks doing so with charging for FOL/VQ systems. ;) Seems to me you should be fine with both even though one may cut against your tastes and the other inure to your benefit.

GoBucks89 said:

You are just making stuff up. Who ever said that VQ was morally wrong?

Dude have you actually read the comments? I make nothing up, you're just not reading.

After proofreading this post, I'd like to apologize and swear I'm not high right now. :)

LostKause said:
I'm not going to name any names, because I don't want this to seem like a personal attack on anyone, because, frankly, I really like you guys... Dare I suggest that some people who enjoy taking advantage of line cutting systems are only thinking of themselves, and not the greater good of all of the people who visit the park? I can't figure out why other people don't feel "dirty" for using it, except that they don't care about anyone else.

I'd agree with that except that it doesn't faze me one bit to be on the other end of the equation either. I'm totally ok with standing in the regular line and having someone use VQ. It was my choice to stand in the regular line instead of the VQ line. Is that selfish?

It is what it is. I understand that the line is bull**** to begin with. The fallacy is in thinking it's all fair in the first place.

Barely related and totally abstract, but one of the places this really hit me was Kings Island's opening day in 2009. To see people walking around all proudly with their Diamondback "Rider #24" or "Rider #40" first rider shirts just made me chuckle a little because just the day before Jeff and I (and lots of other people) took dozens of rides.

The whole thing was a facade. It was a game. Those people were first riders as much as you're next in line.

You're all into conspiracy theories, Travis. That queue line is the biggest lie of all. Why would I accept that if I don't have to? Why is the idea of paying to get in and then standing around like an idiot with all the other idiots hoping to get the next available morsel of fun a 'fair' idea...or even a good one? That's where they stick the people who don't know any better and don't have a claim to any better. You talk about conditioning people to accept VQ, but you've already been conditioned to accept standing in a queue. That's why the new condition feels weird.

We all have the same opportunities inside the park. It's not your fault if I don't (or can't, or won't) take advantage of them and vice versa.

There's lots of ways to get on that ride quicker or without waiting in line - VQ, single rider, ERT, VIP, employee after hours, media days, cutting in line, getting there first thing in the morning, knowing someone who'll slip you exit passes, being handicapped in some way, using baby swap, buying a hotel room, getting a reservation slip from a machine in front of the ride, poaching seats, special tours...

This militant idea of each person standing in a row and the next person taking their turn is what people who don't know better think happens all around them. It's a cute little thing you tell people who aren't paying attention to keep them complacent. (or that they tell themselves to feel better about not understanding the bigger picture)

I'm not even sure what my ultimate point here is. I think I'm more trying to convey a concept or metaphor than anything. It's not black and white - it's very much grey.

The concept of 'fair' is what you tell kids who can't understand the more complex realities of how it all really works.

GoBucks89 said:
But I don't think it makes sense to say that FOL/VQ systems don't negatively impact those who either don't or can't take advantage of them. They clearly do (though how much is probably difficult to pin point accurately).

And that's just another one of the many angles of the argument. My take has always been that the impact is minimal simply because of the ratio. You're taking a little from each individual of the vast majority and splitting that total evenly among the individuals of the tiny minority. The small impact to the many makes a big impact for the few. The key is to take little enough from the many that they don't notice or care, but still collect enough to give to the few that it's worth it to them and they're happy with the value proposition. You don't lower satisfaction on the bottom and at the same time you're raising it on the top. It's the reason this all works. If the impact was too great to the non-users or the benefits not great enough for the users, the system breaks down.

And implementing them is in the business judgment of any given park

Exactly. And with more jumping on board each season, there must be a reason. If it was really bad business or affecting guests negatively in a significant way or causing some kind of downside, it wouldn't be happening.

And while we might not be able to pinpoint it accurately, I think we can safely use that fact to infer that the postive impact (in revenue or guest satisfaction or crowd control or whatever the intended metric is) is at least equal to or greater than the negative impact in the same areas when VQ is put into the mix. Otherwise it'd be bad business and it'd go away. Instead these systems have been tweaked and expanded.

I have used the single rider line. By doing that you don't have a choice on were you sit and that's how it should be.

Lord Gonchar said:

Hell, even a park like Knoebels that offers both ride-all-day and pay-per-ride plans creates different levels of access. Is it fair that someone who paid $35 gets unlimited rides while someone with just $10 in their pocket gets only a handful? They both knew what they bought. Every person buying a ride-all-day is making the lines longer because they can keep getting in them over and over - just because they paid more.

BLASPHEMER!!!

KOZMO IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!!!

Can't wait to use the fast lane and be a single rider, I think some peoples head's just may explode.

kpjb said:
BLASPHEMER!!!

KOZMO IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!!!

:)

Well, if you think about it, it's the ultimate class separation. You can get in for free and do nothing. Spend a little money and get a few a la carte rides, spend a little more and get unlimited access to all the rides except the wooden coasters. Pay even more and get unlimited acces to all the rides and the wooden coasters. Then pull even more money from your pocket and you can ride the Haunted Mansion, Skyride and Black Diamond.

It's the very definition of creating different levels within the park based on money. It's not even a matter of cutting in line, but rather of being allowed in a line in the first place.

Gonchar, your post pretty much sums up how I have come to resolve the issue of these passes. I posted a relatively emotionally reactive post over at P-Buzz about how bad and evil the idea was, and then I read some more discussion and actually thought about it objectively, and really had a change of heart...or brain....or both.

Basically, it's just not that big of a deal...whether one objects to it on "moral" grounds or whatever is up to an individual, and of course they have that choice.

I have a question, however. Many posters on here have stated how wrong it is. Let's say, though, you won a contest at Magic Mountain, or Cedar Point (hypothetically if they adopted it) where your whole family or group won free fast passes. Would you turn it in and reject the prize? Or would you enjoy it?

Unless you would reject the prize and say..."no thank you, I find your system to be immoral and hyper-capitalistic, and rejecting your prize is my way of showing you how I feel"...well....you're a hypocrite.

Lord Gonchar said:
It's the very definition of creating different levels within the park based on money. It's not even a matter of cutting in line, but rather of being allowed in a line in the first place.

It can certainly be that in some cases but in other cases it has nothing to do with money. It is the person's choice to just walk around the park with out having to pay at all. An example would be a grandparent taking their grandson to the park.

Maybe the paying patrons should be mad that they are subsidizing the "freeloaders" to utilize the park's services?

And that's another way to look at it.

And what about how much we pay to play in the first place? Just like there's a million ways to stand in line (see my weird reply a few posts back), there's a million prices to pay to get in too.

We all pay something different. Some have season passes, some have more expensive season passes, some paid full price for a ticket, some bought a discount ticket online, some with a coupon of some kind, some might have gotten a discount for using a certain credit card, some may have won free tickets or been given tickets in some way, some might have a friend at the park who hooks them up...

It's already not equal the second you walk through the gate. Is it 'fair' that one person paid $50 for access to the park and another paid $20 for the same thing?

Guest 1 pays full price ($45) for a ticket and waits in regular line all day.

Guest 2 has a season pass that he's used enough to get the cost per visit down to $20 and he uses regular line, but also takes advantage of single ride lines for quicker access throughout the day.

Guest 3 bought discount tickets for $30, but also spent an addition $50 for preferred ride access for the day. He's using regular lines, but also VQ/FOL lines where available for his $80 purchase.

Three very different costs and threee very different experiences. The core point remains. If you think everyone is getting the same thing at the park, you're not paying attention.

I can't wait 'til parks start charging to ride in the front and back rows of their coasters. $10 gets you a wristband that gives you access to the front and back rows of all the train for the day. Everyone else rides in the middle.

If you designed your stations so the VQ attendant could also monitor row usage (S:RoS/Bizarro SFNE is already perfectly designed for this - and gets my "best station design ever" award) you wouldn't even have to hire more staff.

Perfect examples of ignorance is bliss. As long as you are paying what you feel is a fair price for the services you are given then be happy. Don't worry about what others are paying. If you are not happy - then do something about it to make you happy.

ApolloAndy said:
I can't wait 'til parks start charging to ride in the front and back rows of their coasters. $10 gets you a wristband that gives you access to the front and back rows of all the train for the day. Everyone else rides in the middle.

Similar to what the airlines do now with charging more for the emergency exit rows. Those seats, both in the coaster example and on the airplane, offer what many feed to be a better experience.

Personally I'll take the 2nd row of the coaster - virtually the same experience as the front row, IMHO, and with out the wait. And apparently for free according to Andy's prophecy:)

Lord Gonchar said:

Well, if you think about it, it's the ultimate class separation...It's the very definition of creating different levels within the park based on money. It's not even a matter of cutting in line, but rather of being allowed in a line in the first place.

Absolutely agree. If you have 10 bucks then you can only ride x amount. If you pay more, you can ride more. The people that pay more make the lines longer by being given access to unlimited rides.

(Also, Cedar Point sucks for opening Windseeker late, but Flying Turns is a "work in progress.")

^ Also, when WindSeeker didn't open on time, Cedar Point should have just given up and TAER'D IT DOWN. ;)

kpjb said:
(Also, Cedar Point sucks for opening Windseeker late, but Flying Turns is a "work in progress.")

Shhhh! You trying to get us killed?

The Enthusiast Gestapo is always listening...