How Bad Was The Great Escape Comet Butchered?
Fate is the path of least resistance.
coasterdude318 said:"Less valid" does not mean "wrong." You're older than I am and obviously can't understand that. I know what an opinion is, and I also know it's ridiculous to try to claim your opinion is as valid as someone who has actual first-hand experience with what is being discussed.
So if I come in and tell you some random fact you stated is 'less valid' than the one I make, then that makes us both right? Not hardly. But this is an opinion. You can't have a less valid opinion. For cryin out loud! Its an OPINION! Can't you get that? Just because you've rode it dosen't make it any more valid than anyone elses except to you!
What else am I supposed to think when you post to threads that don't even concern you
Oh, and this thread was directed only to you? Boy, that goes beyond ego driven. Rob made comments that you came into to specifically disrupt, and they didn't concern you, so we're both in the wrong there...
I just think you're attention-starved and annoying as hell.
Mighty strong words coming from someone who just as many people feel the same way about. You said it yourself that you couldn't be paid enough to meet me and accused me of stalking. That shows you're afraid.
I could go on to say something else here based on something I was told, but it would just look like I was trying hard to insult you, and I'm better than that. Just remember, you're not Mr. Popularity, and yet you come back for attention every time I come back at you...
I pointed out many other things that you didn't have an answer for. At "twenty-something years of age", I at least know the difference between "to", "two", and "too".
Not having an answer and choosing not to answer something because you don't have the ability to comprehend is 2(two, just so you can understand what I'm saying here) different things. I forgot an 'o' in a word. You've never made a spelling mistake? Right, I thought so...
I commented on the question you asked me, not on his post.
But ya came back to comment on the post! Talk about me wanting attention. If you didn't want it, you'd do what I am going to do after this and leave it alone so that you can have your self appreciating last word, that I'm sure you'll have, just like you keep having with Rob, who isn't going to answer any more either.
If believing that more knowledge is gained from first-hand experience than by reading about what others think is thinking highly of myself, then you're absolutely right.
Nate, we're not talking about Knowledge here, we're talking about opinions. Opinions can be based on facts, personal prefrence, prejudices, and many other things. I know that just went right over your head, but if you need someone else to explain it to you, feel free to ask.
And with that, I, Like Rob, now cordially bow out.
1) Those that are members of clubs because they're fond of the various perks; and
2) Those that are enthusiasts because they value a good ride over everything else.
I don't see anything wrong with falling into either category but the fact that those two types of enthusiasts have very different perspectives makes for a huge problem at times. And the problem? When should enthusiasts maintain a low profile and be thankful for what they've been given and when should they speak their minds and risk suffering some kind of consequences?
Considering how the discussion of the Comet got taken to the very extreme, let's make up some kind of hypothetical situation here. Suppose Lakeview Park, a small out-of-the-way traditional park is home to the Jack Rabbit, an excellent John Miller out-and-back that continues to rank among the best coasters in the country. For years, park ownership has lovingly maintained the coaster, making sure that the ride is true to it's original design. Coaster enthusiasts always descend upon the park because they love the coaster, they love the park and they love the way the owners reciprocate with special enthusiast-only events. A perfect example of one hand washing the other. The park gets good publicity and soem additional business while enthusiasts get treated like royalty for a few hours during the course of a season.
At some point not too long ago, Lakeview decides that they need to reduce operating costs and makes a number of moderate changes to the Jack Rabbit, resulting in an experience that is far from what brought people to the park (enthusiasts or not). Is it right for the "perks" enthusiasts to keep their mouths shut and accept the changes so as not to tarnish their relationship with the park? Or is it right for the "hardcore" enthusiasts to write the park and spread word of the changes, risking their relationship with the park but hoping that they will have a change of heart and consider another approach to maintaining the coaster? I suppose there are things that can be said to defend the views of both kinds of enthusiasts.
As for the proactive approach, that is what I was trying to get across to people when the WCFC organization was started back in February. There are plenty of great little parks out there that deserve a lot more attention than they get: Seabreeze, Waldameer, Lake Winnie all come to mind. All of those parks operate great examples of classic wood coasters (with the exception of the Morgan trains on Seabreeze's Jack Rabbit) and are perfect examples of how small amusement parks should be run. If it's possible to get through to a dozen or so people and get them to realize how wonderful those places are, then this movement will ultimately be successful. After all, isn't a preservation movement most effective before it comes down to the wire with bulldozers lurking in the parking lot? It's certainly not an easy thing to do but it can be done.
....and yes, that day does appear to be coming, and SOON....:(
I'm happy as *heck* that I got to show off the coaster to Tina...couldn't Camden use another classic woodie? ;)
The news of the Starliner's imminent demise is making me sick. I can't believe that beautiful out-and-back, a ride in great condition and one that would fit the demographic at about a hundred different parks, is going to be lost. I was sure that coaster would be an easy sell as far as wood coasters go.
The coaster probably WOULD have gone to another park, but the dismantling takes longer to do carefully, and time's of the essence when you've got condos on the beach to build and sell...
To borrow an OLD line: "Leaving FL, take a developer"...
--Dave (who feels Camden, NJ, as well as Camden Park, should be fair considerations ;))
TeknoScorpion said:
So if I come in and tell you some random fact you stated is 'less valid' than the one I make, then that makes us both right?
We're not talking about facts, remember? We're talking about opinions.
You can't have a less valid opinion.
Oh really? What if an engineer says that, in his professional opinion, a particular bridge is unable to support my car. What if I have a contrary opinion (that the bridge will hold my car just fine)? Are you honestly telling me the engineer's professional opinion is not more valid - more sound - than mine?
What if I come onto Coasterbuzz and say that I hate Top Thrill Dragster. Then, through later discussions, it's revealed that I've never ridden it. Do you really think everyone on here is going to respect my opinion as much if I have nothing to back it up with? How many times have you seen people on here comment on opinions in trip reports asking for specifics as to why someone liked or didn't like something? If you have a contrary opinion to someone else, you're usually expected to have something to back it up with. If you don't have any support for your opinion, it's less valid than the opinion of someone who is able to back it up.
Oh, and this thread was directed only to you? Boy, that goes beyond ego driven.
Did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.
Rob made comments that you came into to specifically disrupt, and they didn't concern you, so we're both in the wrong there...
This thread concerns me because it's interesting to me. I've been to the Great Escape many times over the past few years. I've ridden the Comet. I experienced it before and after the "reprofile." Coasterpunk asked for people's input as to how badly the Comet was "butchered." Since I had an answer for him, I gave it. I didn't come here just to "attack" Rob. On the contrary, I fleetingly mentioned Rob in my first post and did not quote anything he said or directly reply to any of it.
What interest do you have in this thread's subject matter? Have you been to the Great Escape? Have you ridden the Comet? No, you haven't. Do you even know which hill was reprofiled? No, you probably don't. Instead, you posted to this thread because you saw I was involved in a debate and you decided to step in, not because you have an opinion about the subject, but because I'm the one arguing.
Mighty strong words coming from someone who just as many people feel the same way about.
Here's the difference between me and you: you care about what people here thinking of you, and I do not. I'm not here to make friends. I'm not here to play along with the inside jokes and such. It does not matter to me in the least what people think of me here. You, on the other hand, are clearly here for other reasons. That's great; more power to you. I hope you find what you came here for. But understand the difference here, and that just because you care about what people think of you here doesn't mean other people have to.
You said it yourself that you couldn't be paid enough to meet me and accused me of stalking. That shows you're afraid.
No it doesn't. Like I said, I couldn't be paid enough to meet someone like you because I want nothing to do with you. I have no great desire to meet anyone on here, least of all you. It's not because I'm afraid, it's because I have plenty of real friends outside of the online coaster community. Just because I think it's weird that you follow me around on here and I think you're annoying doesn't mean I'm afraid of you.
I could go on to say something else here based on something I was told, but it would just look like I was trying hard to insult you, and I'm better than that. Just remember, you're not Mr. Popularity, and yet you come back for attention every time I come back at you...
Oooohh, now I really am afraid. Please. If you think I come on here for attention, you're wrong. It becomes clearer and clearer that, despite what you think, you don't know anything about me.
Not having an answer and choosing not to answer something because you don't have the ability to comprehend is 2(two, just so you can understand what I'm saying here) different things. I forgot an 'o' in a word. You've never made a spelling mistake?
I've made spelling mistakes and typos, yes. I don't continue to make them in the post immediately following being corrected, however. It humors me that you claim the reason you didn't respond to the other half of my post is because I "don't have the ability to comprehend" it. I comprehend things just fine...how about you?
But ya came back to comment on the post!
No, I commented on your post because you essentially asked me to! Once again, you acted as though I should care that someone on here called me an ass. I replied to you and said that no, I don't care. I didn't reply to his post, and I don't care what it said.
Talk about me wanting attention. If you didn't want it, you'd do what I am going to do after this and leave it alone so that you can have your self appreciating last word, that I'm sure you'll have
That's such a pitiful excuse for taking the easy way out. "I'm going to bow out now because I can't continue to argue, and if you reply to this, then it's clear that you have some need to have the last word, and that's wrong." If you want the last word, then reply. But I'm not going to let you spill out BS upon BS and not put you in your place.
Nate, we're not talking about Knowledge here, we're talking about opinions.
Opinions stem from knowledge. If you have no knowledge of something, how can you really have a valid opinion of it?
That said, you can consider yourself killfiled. I'm tired of your mindless rants, your hanging on my every word, and your immature personal attacks. You don't have the ability to ever contribute anything worthy to a debate, and I'm done with it.
-Nate
*** Edited 11/5/2004 6:43:49 AM UTC by coasterdude318***
If you're not here to make friends, if you're not here because you care what people think of you, if you're not here to play along with inside jokes, if you're not here to gain respect and credibility among your coaster-loving peers and colleagues, if you're not here for attention, if you have no desire to meet any of the people here, and if you have other activities and friends outside of the coaster community -- which, I presume, must satisfy you a hell of a lot more than here because, no offense, the attitude you present to others on these boards does not exactly exude friendliness -- then what exactly are you here for? If none if this means anything to you, why do you keep coming back so fervently and so vehemently?
Again, not a personal attack; I'm just genuinely curious. This just seems like quite the conundrum to me.
All you are to me is entertainment. You don't do anything else than provide me entertainment. So what if I do come here just to argue with you? Didn't you JUST say more power to me if I'm getting what I want out of it?
If you didn't care what people thought, you wouldn't-
A)defend yourself
B)keep coming back
But let me make it perfectly clear-you serve no other purpose to me than to provide me entertianment. I sit back and enjoy it when you're arguing out of your behind because, though you try and try to validate yourself into some all poweful, all knowing supreme coaster nerd, all you are is entertainment to me.
If you and an experienced Engineer came in and gave differing engineering opinions, yours would most certainly not be less valid. Its an opinion. If you were giving your Professional Opinion, then that is something entirely different, and something that would stand up in court. But you didn't say anything about a Professional Opinion. You like bannanas, I like oranges. Thats our opinions, neither one is more or less valid.
Oh, and you've yet to ever put me in my place. Don't flatter your oversized ego. It seems that in the last year, myself and others have tried and tried to explain this whole concept of opinion to you, and you still don't get it. You're either not able to comprehend, or you're not willing to comprehend. I dont' know either way, but its still only entertainment to me, because that is what you do. You entertain me with your uncomprehensive and enlarged ego ways.
Now, you mention that I come here looking for attention, friends, bla bla bla...and you are right. I came to a community and found some pretty good friends. But here's the kicker: Almost everyone that is on my messenger list contacted me first. That includes Moosh, Danny, Tina, and alot of others on here. They made first contact with me. I didn't have a need for them to do that, but they did it in response to something funny or interesting that I said. And I'm more than happy they did, because all of the people that I chat with from here are great people, and I'm glad to know them.
But you, you don't come here for that. Thats fine, no one is forcing you to. But like Dave asks, why DO you come back? If you didn't like it here, or atleast get some need fulfilled off of here, then you wouldn't be back. Don't try that 'I don't care what people think' crap either. Like I said, you wouldn't defend yourself if you didn't care.
And now for another question. If you think I'm such an annoying attention whore, then why in the world do you keep feeding me the attention I so obviously want? Huh? You're the one thats supposed to be better than that nate! Who's worse here, the attention starved annoying guy, or the guy that has to come back EVERY SINGLE TIME and give him attention, and then accuse him of being annoying and an attention whore, when you KEEP FEEDING HIS HABIT?
First mistake is thinking you're smarter than me. Second is taking the bait every time I put it on the hook. I'll continue to bait you, you'll continue to bite. I'll keep being entertained and getting my attention by annoying you(oh, and you'd have to care for me to annoy you, otherwise I wouldn't annoy you), and the cycle will never quit.
Opinions stem from knowledge. If you have no knowledge of something, how can you really have a valid opinion of it?
Let me give you the first definition of Opinion I could find(dictionary.com, I just cut and pasted)
[bold]A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof[/bold]
copied right off the site, that states that you are wrong in saying an opinion is based on knowledge of something. Thats why its an opinion. If you were talking about professional opinion, then you would use the second, third, or fifth definition there, which talks about a medical opinion, which you can't have, since you're not a dr, or a professional opinion in court.
Every definition backs what I say up, though I'm sure that you'll somehow spin it to make you think it backs you up. But you're wrong there, and I just proved it to you.
And yes, I do know which hill was re-profiled. I didn't come into this thread thinking "oh, maybe nate will be arguing here today".
So Keep on entertaining me nate, it sure is alot of innocent fun on my end.:)
Speaking of THE COMET and how GREAT it is, how about that lift hill? Despite that fact that The Comet is an older coaster, it has an amazingly fast lift hill. Not only that, it seems to accelerate as it approaches the top.
To this day I've never been on a coaster that's done this (Hulk doesn't count. ;)). I think it really adds to the ride. You get a nice "push" as you begin the journey.
They've been dealing with parks for alot longer than I have, maybe they know that their methods are more effective, I don't know.
I can only imagine what I would do in this situation and speculate using the limited info I have
Rob Ascough said:
The way I see it Nate, there are two kinds of coaster enthusiasts...
If this is what you were referring to earlier when you said it was clear which "type" of enthusiast I am, I think you were mistaken. I'm an enthusiast because I enjoy the hobby, plain and simple. I don't belong to any club, so I don't get any special "perks" that come with a club membership. ERT does not matter to me, but neither does lobying a park because they altered a particular ride. I enjoy riding roller coasters and visiting parks, sure, but I also enjoy the business aspect of it all. I guess you could say I'm a park and industry enthusiast, but I don't think I fit into either of your two categories.
That said...
Suppose Lakeview Park, a small out-of-the-way traditional park is home to the Jack Rabbit...At some point not too long ago, Lakeview decides that they need to reduce operating costs and makes a number of moderate changes to the Jack Rabbit...
What if those changes to the Jack Rabbit were absolutely necessary to keep the ride in operating condition? Is it better for the park to make those changes and keep the ride functioning or is it better for them to let the ride go SBNO? I don't think things are ever as simple or as cut-and-dry as they seem. If I had been a big fan of the Jack Rabbit I would have been disappointed at the changes, sure. The part of me that enjoys following the industry, however, would respect the park's decision not because I want to retain any special perks, but because I respect the way the industry functions and the way most parks are run (no matter how hard I try, I cannot respect the way parks like SFKK and La Ronde are run :) ).
is it right for the "hardcore" enthusiasts to write the park and spread word of the changes, risking their relationship with the park but hoping that they will have a change of heart and consider another approach to maintaining the coaster?
I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but sometimes it's clear to me that enthusiasts think they know a lot more than they do. Really, what incentives are there for the park to listen to enthusiasts and take another approach? The park has obviously thought hard about maintaining the coaster, obviously knows more about maintaining that particular coaster than enthusiasts, and the people in charge have obviously made up their mind about the solution. It's simply not worth the costs to please a group that makes up less than 1% of the annual visitors to the park. The bottom line is, most parks have little (if anything) to lose by cutting away enthusiasts, but enthusiasts have lots to lose by tarnishing relationships with parks.
Suppose a number of the enthusiasts complaining to Lakeview Park haven't even visited the park? (Or at least they hadn't visited in several years.) They have effectively given no money to the park. They aren't customers. The park has absolutely no reason to listen to them.
As for the proactive approach, that is what I was trying to get across to people when the WCFC organization was started back in February.
Again, I wish you well with that. I think there are a lot of parks and rides out there that don't get the recognition they deserve (and some of those are even in corporate parks!). If you're really the type of person who enjoys and respects historical or classic rides and parks, I think recognition is a great thing to give back to these things and places you enjoy. And as you said later in your post, the recognition has the potential to bring more people through the gate, and thus further assurance that the rides and places you enjoy will continue to operate for years to come.
Nitro Dave: I come here for a few reasons. First, I began coming here for the news, because Jeff really does do news relating to the hobby better than any other site out there. Second, I come here to debate. Enthusiasts have a variety of opinions and viewpoints on various subjects, and I enjoy debating my views and opinions. In this case, I enjoyed debating with Rob over the Comet. Finally, I come here for entertainment. Reading through the forums is entertaining for a number of reasons. I think I'm generally friendly to (or at least tolerant of) people until personal attacks begin. Some people don't seem to like my style, and that's fine, but I don't really care. (I also think people tend to greatly misinterpret my tone and my words, but I don't really care about that either.) I met and made friends with several people from a coaster group I used to belong to, and many of us remain good friends. I'm just not coming to Coasterbuzz to look for that. Again, that's not a slam on people who do that, but it's just not me. There are people here that I know personally and get along well with, and there are also a few people on here I would probably meet (and who I'm certain I would get along well with), but I'm not going out of my way to do so. The bottom line is I have my coaster friends, and I'm happy with what I have. This is my entertainment. Honestly, why am I soooo interesting to people like Clint?
-Nate
*** Edited 11/5/2004 5:35:54 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
Going back to the Lakeside Jack Rabbit scenario, there are a number of factors that come into play because nothing is ever truly cut-and-dry. If the changes that were made to that hypothetical coaster affect the quality of the ride so much that it turns many enthusiasts away, I think we can assume one of the following to be true:
1) The nature of the coaster's design caused it to be too intense for park guests, resulting in an experience that does not appeal to the majority of the park's demographic target.
2) The design of the ride resulted in the coaster being too costly to maintain properly on a yearly basis, making it an obligation to the park that they can no longer afford to deal with.
3) The park's insurance company found the ride needing of "upgrades" to make it cheaper to insure, resulting in a healthier long-term bottom line.
What I'm basically getting at is that parks hardly ever change a coaster for the sake of changing a coaster and that there is always some kind of reasoning behind changes being made.
Despite the things that have created some bad blood between parks and enthusiasts during the past two years, there still exists a strong relationship built on respect. I'm going to agree with you and say that the majority of enthusiasts think they know more than they actually do but there is something to be said for the knowledge they have that stems from their numerous ride experiences. Most enthusiasts know very little about physics and structural engineering but they know a good coaster when they ride one and therefore I think that their opinions are worth something to parks. It seems to me that many parks would be wise to consult with enthusiasts- maybe not as individuals but certainly as groups- because they know what makes a good coaster and what makes a bad coaster, just like film critics know what makes a good movie and what makes a bad movie. Taking advantage of what enthusiasts do know, I can't help but think that parks can make more educated changes to their rides when changes are needed. Maybe enthusiasts could have helped Six Flags New England make more reasonable changes to the Cyclone's first drop or Six Flags America make more reasonable changes to the Wild One's turnaround so that the changes were successful from the park's point of view and a rider's point of view. After all, if a group of enthusiasts that understand good ride quality and a park's need to make money gives a coaster their stamp of approval, what are the chances of the ride being acceptable in the eyes of the general public? Very good I would imagine.
I'm happy to see that you "get" our organization's goal as the point seems to be lost on many. People seem to think that our members are going to magically save all endangered coasters but that is obviously not our plan since it is hideously unrealistic. Our plan is to push the positive attributes of parks; to publicize the good things that they do. There is so much focus on the negative most of the time that the positive rarely gets the attention that it deserves. That's not to say that we aren't going to be critical of things that we feel are wrong, but it has always been our intention to cast a spotlight on the good things that are done so other parks can see what is successful for others can also be successful for them. Like I said, it's preservation before preservation is actually needed. Getting back to what Sam said, it's what makes more sense than last-minute efforts and knee-jerk reactions that so often lead to failure.
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