Flying Turns Update

Monday, March 20, 2006 3:49 PM
I've actually ridden that Santa Cruz Jet Star (of course, it was at Thrill-Ville at the time; I assume it is still up there...).

The cars are standard Schwarzkopf Jet Star rolling stock, but the pipe-frame and sheet metal bodies have been replaced with Fiberglas shells. Kind of a shame, actually...but from the floorboards on down, it's all Schwarzkopf.

Recall that the Jet Star used skid brakes, so the braking conveyor would have been a fairly simple modification as it could work on the same plate on the bottom of the cars as the original skid brakes. I have seen two other rides that used conveyors for braking. One is the Bobsleds coaster at Seabreeze Park...the only coaster I know of where a wood tracked ride was actually capped with tubular steel. The other was the Firecracker at Holiday World. After the second time that ride was sold, the conveyor brake was scrapped in favor of a magnetic braking system. That ride is now called the "Avalanche" and travels with Amusements of America.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:50 AM
As concerns the "roughness" of the EBP Turns ride: we have been graced with input from a gentleman who actually operated the Turns ride back in the 1950s (ironically, we made contact with this gent via Rick Davis and the DAFE people). His input was vital guidance shortly after we got serious about building a Turns ride, and his only warning about a possible problem during recreation was that the crowd brake was violent.

I mulled this over and came up with the following explanation: the crowd brake comes in a helix, because the helix causes the cars to track up to a fairly predictable line, and the brake can be squeezed in gradually without fear that some train, some day, might be out of control enough to bash the brake at an awkward angle.

But by being in a helix, the track has to be dropping away at a high rate, enough so that by 360 degrees of turning (actually, even less than this), the track has fallen away enough to allow clearance from the track above. So this means that, even as the brake is trying to force the train to slow, the track’s downward slope is still trying desperately to speed up the train.

Now imagine what happens in that final helix. The helix is steeply sloped downward, so the train is picking up speed. Here comes the side brake, down from the right, and soon enough, the lead car kisses the brake. The car is physically repelled down to the left, bounced there by the contact with the side brake; but the rest of the track keeps telling the train to go faster. So the car comes back up to kiss the brake again, setting up a brief but potentially violent oscillation between a slowing collision against the brake and the downward rush of the track geometry. Other cars behind the lead soon come to participate to their own extent in this oscillation, until the crowd brake has encroached so far into the path of the train that its influence finally overcomes the incremental force of gravity.

Too rough? I don’t know: I did not ride the EBP ride. Maybe we have thrown out the baby with the bath water. We will undoubtedly learn much more about how the train and trough interact after we have a full-scale model operating. However, I thought you might appreciate the thought process behind the choice to avoid (as did Bartlett himself) the reuse of the EBP crowd brake system.

John Fetterman

Knoebels Groves *** Edited 3/21/2006 12:54:37 PM UTC by John Fetterman***

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:10 AM
John, It was so nice of you to reply and get many facts straight. Thank you! It always amazes me how many times people reply and either miss something, or forget the facts or statistics. It's all conversation.

As you've seen, Many of the details were covered in this topic but people could get confused. Two lifts? Three lifts? Helix at begining? End?

It's great that you could share the exact details, *for reference purposes* with us!

While having visited Knoebels several times, This year looks to be my first PPP! I can't wait! So let me be the first to call it the Phlying Phurns.

Chuck, Thanks again!

P.S. For those who don't know, John Fetterman is the man who makes the blueprints for the ride. It don't get no more factual than that :)

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:25 AM
rollergator's avatar SO hard waiting on Starliner to get rebuilt (hint hint)...but KFT makes it so completely and inarguably WORTH the extra wait...

Exceptionally grateful to have THE John Fetterman discussing this project with us...but I gotta wonder where the "Lost Technology" was found... ;)

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:50 PM
Mamoosh's avatar Question for John Fetterman, if you're still reading:

While I have never experienced a Flying Turns I would think that they were rather noisy, with the U-shaped trough acting almost like a megaphone. Has any consideration been given to noise dampening? Or is that not an issue? Just curious....


PS - thanks for the correction on the number of lifts ;)

*** Edited 3/21/2006 9:50:23 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:44 PM
Here's something else to think about, mOOSH. I remember the Flying Turns as being a rather dirty ride. By this I mean the trough was always littered with leaves, debris, the occasional hat, etc. When objects hit the track of a ride like this they have nowhere to go but to the bottom of the trough and collect. Same with rain and the kind of dirt it can leave behind. I imagine that each morning (or even more phrequently in the phall) the crew will have to walk the track with a power blower to clean the litter out!

The trains also made a rather large mark on the wood. (perhaps pressure treated wood will fare better) EBP painted a stripe of battleship grey paint where the train traveled, either as reinforcement for battered wood or to hide the previous years marks. Maybe it was a safety stripe- someone could use it to get out of the way if they were on the track when a train was released. Anyhow, as you rode you could use it to preview the severity of the turn ahead and how high the train was about to travel.

Have I mentioned that I can't wait for this?

Off subject- could Knoebels please find a vintage CuddleUp and restore it? Would look mighty sweet alongside the Looper, Flyers, and, of course, the new Turns.

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:46 PM
Mamoosh's avatar Knoebels has a 2-Disc Cuddle-Up.
Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:07 PM
Thanks John, for all the information. I know it helped me envision the FT a lot better.

RCMAC, maybe they could just put a huge gutter guard over the whole ride. :)

As long as the request line is open, I want one of these: =========>

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:11 PM
Mamoosh's avatar I have a snippet of video of a Lindy-Loop in action. Of course they didn't loop...just rocked back and forth. But looks fun!


HOLY S#!T...what about this?

Edit #2 - CORRECTION: Knoebels has a Crazy Dazy.

*** Edited 3/21/2006 11:21:51 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:21 PM
Acoustic Viscosity's avatar Easy Moosh. It's not a zipper or anything. ;)

Thanks John for all the info. And if it hasn't been said enough, you did an amazing job with Twister! Can't wait for your next reincarnated coaster. :) *** Edited 3/22/2006 12:24:30 AM UTC by Acoustic Viscosity***

AV Matt
Long live the Big Bad Wolf

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:45 PM
All i know at the moment is: i can't wait until it's done. I live an hour away from Knoebels and i will be there plenty of times this year to enjoy it. I wonder if it really will be done this year. (?)

Rob Mosley

Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:33 PM
LOL @ Roc-O-Wheel. Wonder if those cages could totally invert either through the normal ride motion or by rider-power. The one cage does look like it's vertical. Also wonder how fast those arms rotated.
Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:34 AM

Mamoosh said:
HOLY S#!T...what about this?

That's a great photo of this ride. I have an old Carousel Magazine (carnival publication) that has an extensive article about that ride. I'll have to dig that out now. :)

BTW, the first bent was laid on the Flyings Turn 3/17/06.

See the pic:

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:05 AM
Concerning the noise factor about the Turns: I can imagine that the ride will have a pretty substantial rumble to it. I don't think that it will be inappropriate for its home on the midway - but then, I thought that the Downdraft air sounds would fit in quite well, and that ride is, ahem, a little more present when operating than it might be.

Because the trough is going to be more structural than the original, the sounds should be at least a little different. But since we don't really know what the original sounded like, stating that it won't sound like that really means sqaut, right?

A little note about our Skloosh! ride, the Hopkins Shoot-The-Chute, and the noise it makes. The very heavy boats create a very loud and very low rumble every time the boat rolls down the drop. When it started operating in the middle of the 1997 season, the thunderlike sounds it made put a panic into the crew at the Crystal Pool, near to the Skloosh! Charged with maintaining the safety of hundreds of guests in the face of changeable weather, the crew could not figure out how the otherwise sunny and pleasant sky was producing a rumble of thunder on such a regular basis!

It still shocks the initiated at the the pool.

John Fetterman

Knoebels Groves

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:26 AM
Well wood is a natural sound absorber, Leaves are even better. Even if your in a city and find a good sized patch of woods, If your in the middle of them, You'll be lucky to hear anything other than the wind and birds.

All that aside, I'd imagine that while riding it could be pretty loud! The shape of the trough will deflect the noise upward. However, With three layers of wood to run on, I imagine standing under it, will be quite tollerable.

Chuck, Not a expert. But just lifes observations.

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:19 PM
^^ Not to mention the drone of the Flyers and the screams coming from Power Surge. I think one of the neatest things about Twister is walking down the exit ramp and having the train pass by you twice as it runs through the helix. Sounds are part of the amusement park experience. If you don't want sound, go watch a mime. :)

John, since you mentioned the Turns would be located along the midway (I still call it the old entrance road), it made me wonder how the ride will be oriented. I assumed the entrance queue/station would be located where Whirlwind's was and the turns part would be out by the road. Is that the case, or do I have it reversed? Or sideways?

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:59 PM
phoenixphan :-)'s avatar They only question I have yet to seen answered is the projected end date of the project. I know that it will take some time, since this is a huge undertaking, but when should I be expecting to take a summer off from work to camp at Knoebels? LOL I am psyched about the ride, and cannot wait for another great season in 2006, Flying Turns or not!
Real men ride wood... coasters that is!
Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:28 PM
off topic a bit but knoebels has 2 commercials now on TV and you can few them on their site here:

Theyre pretty short but the second one has some nice shots of rides, Im glad as Ive been waiting to see them on TV for a while. They look very nice and profesional as well.

Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:43 PM
Mamoosh's avatar My reason for asking about the sound/noise was because of the nearby campground, and if they took it into consideration. Frankly I couldn't care at all how much noise it makes.
Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:01 PM
Well I know people camp behind Twister all the time. To be honest, In my two times camping at Knoebels for a total of 5 nights. I could hear nothing but the loudest of screams from the park. Them pines really absorb the noise.



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