Firehawk Coaster Credit?

Magnum counts as a new credit every 4 years because the amount it sinks every year makes it a different experience ;)

"Life's What You Make It, So Let's Make It Rock!"
Mamoosh's avatar
Since people are referring to me I might as well answer the question: no, I would not recount it.

I keep a coaster count, not a track record. I count the number of coasters I've ridden. My method is decidedly strict compared to how many people's methods. It is not right or wrong, merely the method I feel comfortable with.

Since I've ridden X-Flight and Firehawk is physically the exact same ride I won't count it again. Likewise when I went to Silverwood I did not recount their Arrow Corkscrew because I'd ridden it when it was at Knotts. Here's my analogy: if I buy a new house and take my old bed with me when I move I am not suddenly sleeping in a new bed in the new house.

ALL multi-tracked coasters receive one entry in my coaster count regardless if it is racing, dueling, or any other configuration. Dueling Dragons? One entry. Matterhorn Bobsleds? One entry. Colossus? One entry....and so on.

I also do not [re]count retrackings, changes in train type or manufacturer, name changes, paint color changes, theme changes, etc.

What I have done is remove the gray areas. Everything I ride is counted once. How much easier could that be? ;)

rollergator said:

^Tony, a site like CC *has* to put the ride up twice, some may not have ridden it at GL and would need the PKI entry in order to count it at all....
*** Edited 2/5/2007 5:21:48 PM UTC by rollergator***

True. I don't keep track of main seriously just got bored at work one day found that site and decided to put my stuff on there. They give fun info like the total Length you have ridden, Total Height you have fallen, How many times you have been upside down, and other goofy things that made me laugh.

They have to put the PKI entry there, but they don't have to let you add it twice. ;)

"Life's What You Make It, So Let's Make It Rock!"
That is a tricky question, and it's up to you to decide. For example, I count Shockwave (Intamin standup) at Great Adventure and Batman the Escape when it was at Astroworld. BTE did have substantially different themeing to Shockwave's none, so that I at least feel comfortable with.

But then there's a situation like Lightning Loops where I rode the original at Great Adventure as two intertwined tracks, and then rode the separated single-track called Python at the former Adventure World, now SFA. In that case, maybe I am counting the ride twice when I shouldn't.

Ultimately though for me, I look at it as a history record in some ways more than a count. I'm sure there are some I'm missing because there's no one who can remember for me.

For example, I may have ridden The Wildcat when it was at Busch Gardens Europe under a different name. It looks familiar in the two pictures I saw of it on RCDB when it was at BGE, but does it look familiar because I passed it, or because I rode it? At least I clearly remember riding the Jumbo Jet.

I wasn't even aware that it was the same ride that sits SBNO at Adventure Park U.S.A. in New Market, MD (until the news article) and would've definitely counted it as a credit if it had opened last year. Asking my parents who are in their 60's and not into riding coasters wouldn't do me much good. Maybe we've got family photos somewhere:)

As far as the clone question of the two FoFs, well, why not? There are some who would even say that adding a building and darkness does not make a ride unique from its outdoor counterpart. I count all four stateside spaghetti bowl coasters, where maybe someone else only claims one out of the total five.

Hypothetical question for those who would count it twice based on the "new atmosphere" argument:

Do you count every roller coaster twice if the atmosphere around it changes? For instance, what if SFMM suddenly tore up that parking lot under Scream! and planted a lot of grass and trees. Would you count it again?

When the Legend was built it was basically just that ride and the woods. Now there are a lot of waterslides around it. Did you count it again after Zoombabwe was built?

I don't understand that logic. :)


I would count it twice!!!

Many people count riding on Batwing and X-flight as two coasters even though they are clones. Also Flight of Fear and Jokers Jinx are the same ride (with one being indoors). If those two and X-flight and Batwing can be counted seperately then I would say Firehawk is a totally different ride. As said before in this discussion different park, different atmosphere, theming, paint etc = another roller coaster count. Hope that helps.

Mamoosh's avatar
Hope that helps.

It helps you justify your method of counting, regardless of how faulty your logic is ;)

*** Edited 2/6/2007 6:44:09 AM UTC by Mamoosh***

Ill count it as a new credit, because at least part of it will be new (the footers ;).) But thats just a way I can answer coasterdude's question about atmosphere and not count rides that had some new landsaping done.

2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando

Mamoosh's avatar
Re: new footers and new landscaping.

So if you replace your car's tires are you suddenly driving a new car? If you get a new carpet in your home are you suddenly living in a new home?

Sorry...I've yet to hear a convincing argument that would change my mind on counting relocated rides.

*** Edited 2/6/2007 7:01:33 AM UTC by Mamoosh***

The way I see it, moosh, to keep it in the car analogy:

What defines the car? The windshield? The doors? The color? The engine? The tires? The brakes? The frame? The style of such items? The VIN?

What defines the coaster? The track? The trains? The brakes? The control panel? The computer system (or lack thereof)? The park it's in? The theming? The operators? Maybe we need a 'CIN' - Coaster Identification Number :)

If you replace your car's tires, it's not a new car. But what if you replace the tires, the COMPLETE engine, brakes, headlights, taillights, all 4 doors (and windows), hood, trunk, spare tire, sound system, seats, seltbelts, air bag, and get it repainted. The only thing NOT new is the actual frame underneath the body work. I would still consider that a new car. Not brand-new, mind you, but still new-to-me.

Likewise when a coaster is relocated. Essentially the only thing that is the same is "the frame" -- the structure and most of the times (but not all) the trains. It's repainted, sometimes footers are replaced, sometimes new theming, heck I'd bet that a lot of the electrical wiring is replaced when they do the move.

As for the argument of the "atmosphere around the ride" changing -- that is a gradual change - just like the replacing the tires, then later replacing the brakes, etc. Putting it in a different park is a COMPLETE change.

Regardless of your counting methods, I respect those. In fact, although I personally do count them, I can understand not counting racers, duelers, train retrofits, or even slight track modifications (within the same park.. not as part of a move), but not so much relocations for one simple reason, and to illustrate that reason I'll end with these questions:

How many people would count it is another credit if you didn't know that it was formerly known as X-Flight at Geauga Lake? (In the car analogy, it's like buying a pre-owned car and you didn't know that it used to be your friend's car that you drove several times while on road trips with him. Wouldn't you still think it's new-to-you?) Why does anything change just because you know where it came from, and then can for sure discount the "second credit" correctly?

"Life's What You Make It, So Let's Make It Rock!"
rollergator's avatar

Mamoosh said:Sorry...I've yet to hear a convincing argument that would change my mind on counting relocated rides.

I agree with you *almost* 100%. But, as with every exception, there's a rule waiting to be broken...or something like that. ;)

Relocated wooden coasters sometimes change their layouts, and usually change a LOT of wood (most if not all), and probably all of the running rails. FL Hurricane becomes AK Twister, some layout changes occur. But one of the best examples is Hillcrest's Little Dipper becoming Meteor at L-A-M-A. I'm not sure where I read this, but it was something like 18(!) individual BOARDS that were being re-used from the original. Mr. Twister pieces in essence, to KG's Twister.

I refuse to say that "that means it's a new coaster", because clearly, that's up to the person counting. my point- - if you can get one out of my rambling post, is that even in the "simplest" methods, there's going to be SOME gray area.

There's always a bit of variation.

I certainly DON'T think PKI's Racer, CP's Gemini or SFGAM's American Eagle are two coasters. For that matter, I don't think Gwazi is either--they're not different enough. Twisted Sisters? Oh c'mon, what's the point? They're 1/3 of a coaster each!

But Dueling Dragons is two coasters if you ask me. I never 'got' Immelmans and am very partial to cobra rolls. Not even close to the same.

But the real core of the issue here....what gives ANYBODY the idea that an increased coaster count somehow makes you 'cool?' Snort.


*** Edited 2/6/2007 3:30:25 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.

Mamoosh's avatar
Nice try Dan but you still have not convinced me. ANY well-maintained coaster will have many, many parts removed and replaced with new.

How many times has Dragster had the launch cable replaced? Undoubtedly she's had a fin brake or two replaced. Trains are taken apart during the off-season and parts replaced as-needed, not to mentioned they have received siginificant mods more than once. And with the blocking problems the ride has had I would guess work was done on the proximity sensors or computer system. What difference does it make that the ride has remained in the same spot? It has still been subjected to the same changes that you use in you arguemnt to recount a relocated ride. So are you going to recount TTD since it is not the same ride it was when it opened?

And what would I do if I discovered a coaster on my count was already on my count with a different name and location? Well that's happened...and I removed the second location and dropped my total by one.

Yes Gator I know there are gray areas. That's why I like my method: it removes them. And I'm not saying that counting methods different than mine are wrong. I've just yet to hear any convincing arguments that would make me change how I count ;)

Mamoosh said:

Sorry...I've yet to hear a convincing argument that would change my mind on counting relocated rides.

Me too...and I'm a pretty big credit whore. Again, personal opinion.....while I might count Dueling Dragons or even WDW's space Mt as 2...(different superstructures)...I wouldn't count Racer, American Eagle, etc as 2 either.

Real Cbuzz quote of the day - "The classes i take in collage are so mor adcanced then u could imagen. Dont talk about my emglihs" - Adamforce
rollergator's avatar

Mamoosh said:Yes Gator I know there are gray areas. That's why I like my method: it removes them.

I'll accept MINIMIZES....I still don't believe "eliminates".

Do you count Mr. Twister and NOT KG's Twister? There's a brake lever arm that came from the original that is "attached" to KG's version...

Not trying to be argumentative, just that there's NO method that removes ALL gray areas...

coasterdude318 said:

Do you count every roller coaster twice if the atmosphere around it changes? For instance, what if SFMM suddenly tore up that parking lot under Scream! and planted a lot of grass and trees. Would you count it again?

When the Legend was built it was basically just that ride and the woods. Now there are a lot of waterslides around it. Did you count it again after Zoombabwe was built?

Good point. I'm not one to criticize anyone's counting menthod, but I don't understand that mentality. Park environments change all the time, and if I counted each coaster again when that happened, my track record would likely increase by 50%. Doing that adds more complexity to the situation. What counts as a change in environment? Trees getting older, or trees getting removed? New neighboring rides? Heck, the environment of a park changes when the rain clouds give way to sunshine.

Just playing devil's advocate here...

I am counting SOB again with new trains and no loop. :)
That might make sense. I think a situation like the one with the Frontier City Wildcat is the same- that coaster was severely altered from when it stood at Fairyland Park. The entire second half of the ride changed, from what I understand. To me, that seems like counting Steel Phantom AND Phantom's Revenge (which I do) because the experience was altered considerably.
I was kidding. ;)

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