Enthusiasts on Notice
Intamin Fan said:
I have to say that a certain couple has certainly set a bad example on their home videos.
Don't even try to pull that. If you're going to call people out have the guts to do it by name. We all know you're talking about Alvey, so don't even try to play it down.
Don't try to pin this ongoing problem on just two people, either. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by everyone on the community, not just one or two folks. Yes, there are a few bad eggs that have reflected poorly on the rest of enthusiasts, but there is something that we can all do about it- behave personally.
If you're not breaking rules, that's great keep on doing your part. Spread the word that there are those of us in the community that just aren't going to put up with that rule breaking **** anymore because we don't like being made out to look like assholes just by association.
This is everybody's problem, if you like it or not. Personally, I am doing my part. Are you?
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- John
Homepark: Cedar Point
Home-away-from-homepark: Paramount's Kings Island
GregLeg said:
Coastration said:
My basic point was to say that this single letter is not a major deal, it means very little coming from a chain representing only six parks.It's a VERY big deal. The fact that ANY park, let alone one of the big gun chains felt the need to send that out says a LOT. How many people go through the gates of those "6 parks". This is NOT a small chain.
Silverwood was prepared to make CAC attendees sign waivers this year. What's your response to that -- "Not a big deal, it's only a small park in Idaho"?
Dorney Park had state inspectors at their event making sure everyone followed the rules. Is this what we want? We have to at least police those around us. If we had done so, maybe Tamar Fullner would be alive today. We have to be the ones to set the right example, because whether we want it or not, people are watching us, and emulating us. If we do something that is not right, they may think it is OK and do it too. Or they may try to one up it, and do something even more dangerous. I think this is the point that Jeff is trying to get across.
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Ask yourself; When was the last time YOU visited Conneaut Lake Park?
On a related tangent... There is a certain contractor who comes in the store every so often. Whenever I wait on him, he comes off as rude and arrogant. After the tornado hit (long involved story.. if you really want to know it, email it), he was in my yard helping to clean up the rubble. He chatted with my mother for a few minutes, and he gave her a card. Do you think for a second that I'd recommend him? No way. I may not know him, but the way he acts toward me is enough for me not to.
That's the same thing that these parks (namely Cedar Fair, at the moment) see. There are always a few great examples of great enthusiasts following the rules. The ones that stick out, however, are the ones who are rude and arrogant. Who would want to deal with people like this? Really?
At least they are concerned enough that they've sent out a letter instead of dropping events all together.
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AIM: Pritti Kittie
Intamin Fan said:
As for the editorial, I have to say that a certain couple has certainly set a bad example on their home videos.
I totally agree with you there too, and have thought that for some time now. I think that that is a topic that has become taboo to talk about, well I think it is something that has to be spoken of. There are several POV's of coasters on those videos that I am fairly sure (though not totally certain) that they could have only gotten by breaking to rules and sneaking a camera aboard the ride.
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Ask yourself; When was the last time YOU visited Conneaut Lake Park?
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- "I used to be in the audio/visual club, but I was kicked out because of my views on Vietnam........and I was stealing projectors" - Homer Simpson
It's my opinion that as an enthusiast, if you love your hobby, you lead by example and let others know about it when they exhibit unsafe or unacceptable behaviour.
Thanks for something to think about tonight Jeff.
Our priviledges arise out of our group membership and shared name... what have we done lately to earn them?
And, according to the latest ACE News, what appeared to be violations were observed during morning ERT. Enthusiasts were returning to the station with seatbelts unbucked. I most cases they were unbuckling the seatbelt between the final brakes and station to make unload/load faster.
The good news? Enthusiasts were asked not to unbuckle seat belts until trains were stopped in the station and during the nighttime ERT everyone did just that.
Regarding the letter from CF frankly I'm not surprised and I think Jeff's editorial was spot-on. As enthusiasts the future of our hobby depends on us obeying rules and making sure others do, too.
mOOSH
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But when i am at the parks, I feel that all the rule breaking and arrogance, of both the general public and enthusiast community is enough to not make it fun sometimes going to the park. Also I just feel that everyone should follow the rules and enjoy the rides in a safe manner no matter who you are, the designers made lap bars for a reason, so people dont' get hurt.
I pray that we can just go out have some fun and hopefully never have to go through a coaster season again , like this past one we just had.
Wood Fan
Like Jeff said, we make up such a tiny percentage of their annual guests, it's a miracle that parks even host such events in the first place. I can understand feeling angry if you're one of the self proclaimed "good enthusiasts" that never bends the rules and keeps an eye on other enthusiasts as well. But in my opinion, even if you aren't doing any rule breaking yourself, if you see another enthusiast engaging in a potentially harmful act and don't say anything, then you're just as guilty as they are. Guilty by association.
In many situations, not doing something is just as bad or worse than engaging in the activity yourself. How would you ever be able to live with yourself if you saw someone deliberately disobeying the rules on a ride and being injured or killed as a result? As a group of people, we should all feel a comradery toward each other that extends past our membership cards. You wouldn't let a friend get behind the wheel of a car while intoxicated, so why would you watch someone ride a coaster in a potentially deadly manner?
We need to think about this whole situation selflessly for a change. How would you feel if you were Cedar Fair? Suppose you invited a group of people to your park, went out of your way to give them an enjoyable experience, and then they thanked you by breaking the rules and posing a danger toward other guests as well as putting the park's reputation on the line? Now tell me, are they really overreacting?
We all have to stop thinking about ourselves for a minute and realize where Cedar Fair is coming from. They're running a business here, folks. It's not all fun and games. They didn't owe us a warning, and they certainly don't owe us these events and other privileges. They're making an effort to maintain positive relations with us, and it's up to each and every one of us, regardless of how innocent or guilty we may believe ourselves to be, to do our share in restoring the parks' trust in the enthusiast community.
OLD CROW said:
I'm not on everyones case 100% time but if I see it's going to really hurt that person, I speak up.
Yeah, but you might speak up a little *too* often.
The editorial was pretty good. I don't think most enthusiast are bad natured, but as with anything you do often (driving comes to mind) it is almost human nature to push "it" and get a little *too* comfortable.
Enthusiast tend to do this a lot more often than what we call "general public" just because we get comfortable and think we know what we are doing. What enthusiast would deny liking that extra space between themself and the lapbar or OTSR? That extra space means a lot to us. :) But then, you take it too far and disable a restraint (i.e. seatbelt) you are being stupid. Enthusiast need to know where to stop. A little space is a fun way to ride, but it is a thin line that you don't want to cross.
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-Parker
www.SFMWZone.com
*** This post was edited by GoliathKills 9/3/2003 12:37:13 AM ***
I have to back Jeff up on everything he's said..
When it comes to the whole Alvey incident.. Ladies and gentlemen.. you'd be surprised on what effect this has had on the industry.. and what effect it WILL have..
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June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100
VertiGo Rides - 82
GregLeg said:It's a VERY big deal. The fact that ANY park, let alone one of the big gun chains felt the need to send that out says a LOT.
I agree.
This is a big deal and I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of these types of letters. I am almost certain of it. What happend at SRM this past May was something that won't be forgotten. It won't be brushed under the rug and ignored.
I know of at least three different parks that are watching enthusiasts in great detail, and have even showed signs of not wanting to do events ever again. I know this has been said many times before, but I will say it again. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch.
I have never understood those folks that "demand' special attention because they are enthutiasts such as complaining to parks that they didn't get an extended amount of ERT, or complaning like little babies that they were stapled. I don't speak for everyone but I don't think I have ever had a ride I would consider "ruined" by having a lap bar holding me down snug. I guess I must be one of the lucky ones.
I for one am glad a letter like this has been sent out. Perhaps those "higher than God" type folks that think they are invincible will read, think, and follow the very simple rules that even a child would follow. It's not that difficult folks. Ride responsibly or your responsible for your own actions.
So remember, those of you that constantly complain at events or or normal operating days that you aren't allowed to ride "like you should be able to", sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride like you are supposed to. You think that no one will notice your immature hijinks? Try sitting in front of me. I for one won't be afraid to point you out and I know many others that will do the same. (as cheesy as that may sound) People are going to notice more. If you want more airtime, try jumping out of a plane.
Jeff, I am glad you decided to mention something about this on the site. I know of a few people that could fall into the group of "bad enthutiasts' and perhaps they will think before they ride now.
I am sorry if I sound so bitter on this issue. I take it to heart. Being an enthusiast to me means promoting this hobby in a very positive way, and setting an example to everyone that we are actually safe people that like to have fun.
If those folks that don't see this whole thing as being a big deal were at Holiday World after SRM with the Koch family, I know for certain they would be singing a different tune.
Trust me.
Life is good. Why f*** it up by showing off?
-Sean
*** This post was edited by Sean Flaharty 9/3/2003 3:50:46 PM ***
Despite any debate we have here, those that are involved with the rule breaking are going to take one of two stances:
1) It doesn't apply to me
or
2) I don't care what they think
It's sad to say, but that's the way the world seems to be these days. Maybe the parks could give out numbered bracelets to those who sign up for these events so that rule-breakers could possibly be ID'd and disiplined within their clubs? Showing that we care about this would go a long way to encouraging better relations with the parks.
Just a thought to sleep on.
The most important thing about being a good role model at a park is to follow all the park and ride rules posted or announced. This doesn't mean unbuckling your seatbelt on a ride or having it very loose where it doesn't serve its purpose while riding on rides. Also it doesn't mean that you should not be properly seated on a ride. By doing these things you or someone with you could get hurt or even worse get yourself killed, if not you just make yourself be a bad example for other riders and they could get themselves hurt or killed on a ride. However if you accidentally violate the rules, be a good role model and apologize to the ride ops and the park guests that are with you. Earlier this year I had a slight incident with the Orient Express where I made the ride ops stop the lift on the ride. This is due to the fact I was moving my arms around so I could put on my sunglasses. The problem was that the ride ops are supposed to stop the lift, if they felt that anyone on the train had moved their arms underneath the shoulder restraint. Because I was moving around too much they thought I had done that. Even though it was embarrassing I felt it was necessary to apologize to the guests on the train and to the ride op who went to check on me.
I also suggest that you be friendly with other park guests and all park employees. By being friendly to the park employees, you make their jobs easier and they'll will be very friendly with you and to other park guests. You also tend to build a relationship with the people who work at the parks and they'll get to know about you and your club a lot. In fact I had made friends with a lot of the employees at Worlds of Fun, Silver Dollar City, and Celebration City. A lot of them know me by my name. By being friendly to the other park guests, you help them have a good time and they may be even friendlier to everyone else and other parks guests too. While your doing this you could make new friends and maybe even bump into someone that in the same enthusiasts club as your are in. By doing this you will find your trip to the park very enjoyable and fun. You'll find that the best time to talk and be friendly with the other guests is when your in line with them. By making good conversation with the other guests in line with you, you make a 1 hour wait seem like only 15 minutes.
Last but not least by being a good role model, you should finds ways of helping guests out, that if you been to the park many times before. If someone is wondering where something is at, show them on the map or point towards the direction of where they are wanting to go. There are many other ways of helping guests out like telling them where's the best place to eat at in the park, how long is the line at a certain ride you've been on, or just telling them about when to get to a certain show before showtime. There probably many more ways you can help out the other guests in the park that I didn't mention. By doing these things you know that they're gonna enjoy themselves, because you help them out. You were probably once in their shoes and your were glad when someone help you out.
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Chris Knight
And I'll never, ever, ever, ever, ever make a song about the Sibbie.
I'm a fourth year engineering student that's looking for a co-op somewhere. I was (and still am) having significant trouble finding one, so I decided to call my advisor and set up an appointment with her. In an earlier appointment, discussing my resume, we started discussing my interest in roller coasters. She said that it would be excellent to put the fact that I ride coasters and twiddle around with ride design in my spare time in my resume. In the latter appointment, she called some of the companies that I had applied to and received word on why I wasn't being chosen for the positions. THREE of the companies (non-coaster related) said that it was because of my love for coasters. When I called the companies to find out why, they had experiences with enthusiasts that ‘weren't pleasant’ and they subsequently related me to those enthusiasts, just by association. Like it or not, we serve a role model for other (perhaps less experienced) enthusiasts and the general public.
I think that it's a sad day when I can't proudly say that I am an enthusiast or when state ride inspectors have to come and inspect my lap bar and seat belt because of a certain social group I belong to. The fact that three different companies, in three different parts of the Northeast, found that the worst fault in my resume was my ordinarily safe activity suggests to me that it's not just Cedar Fair that is having these problems and that it's more than just a few people that are causing them. I have even received looks of disgust because I was wearing a coaster related t-shirt. Is it really worth having the public's view of our interest be tarnished for the ability to leave your lap bar loose, stand up on the ride, or some other blatant disregard of the rules?
While Jeff's article had flaws (Not everyone is totally going to agree with everyone else all the time, that what internet forums are for), for the most part, it hit the nail on the head. While the editorial stated that "enthusiasts aren't engineers", that is not exactly a true statement. I am an engineer and I consider myself an enthusiast as well (I think there are others on this site as well), but I think that engineering taught me to respect the safety rules and ride operators even more than I previously did. Lap bars, seat belts and other restraints, as well as other safety rules are made up for a reason. They are there to protect you, the rider from harm. Athletes have rules that they have to abide by, why should participants in other activities be any different?
If anyone here must have a condescending attitude on the general public (I would think twice before having one, after all, if you socialize outside the coaster world, most of your friends probably could be categorized as the "general public"), then think of how an older brother affects a younger brother. Whatever the older brother does, the younger brother is usually apt to follow. The situation at parks is no different. I find that when I take my friends to the park for a day, they tend to emulate what I’m doing; making the assumption that it is the correct thing to do.
In summation, the road ahead of us is a long one. If you're behaving yourself, enjoying a nice day at the park and being a decent, rule abiding enthusiast, congratulations. You are doing what you are supposed to. But the next time you see an enthusiast disregarding an important safety rule, kindly remind them that they are representing the community as a whole, no matter if they belong to a club or not, or which club they belong to if they do. You just might be able to save a life, regain some trust that we have tragically lost, or both.
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Gene Simmons on the Kiss Kasket, "I love livin', but this makes the alternative look pretty **** good."
*** This post was edited by SCrider 9/3/2003 3:40:55 AM ***
This kind of topic is always going to generate more heat than light! :-) The critical point made in this editorial is:
"It's not up to enthusiasts, or any guests, to decide what constitutes safe riding."
Exactly. Let's spend less time debating the validity and generality of the comments from Cedar Fair and whether we have been mis-represented. INSTEAD, just obey the rules, and this whole thing goes away!
It really is that simple people.
ScRider, Sorry to hear about your experiences on the job market. However, I'm not sure that any company with such a laughable approach to recruitment is worth working for. When you're a CEO you can use the same kind of reasoning to avoid employing anyone who has previously worked in recruitment! ;-) Revenge is sweet :-)
Cheers.
If you guys remember, I worked at a park last year. On a very busy day I was training a new employee to attend a major coaster, one that should have been running two trains, but that wasn't my decision. The station is very cramped and small, so from standard operating procedure, we had someone assigning seats. Was I happy with that? No, but I certainly was more than happy to follow the guidelines I was given, especially as a lead.
There was a gentleman waiting for the front seat, mid 30's, fanny pack, DCA shirt on - obvious enthusiast. I had already made it a point to talk to him and give him a few kind words (as I usually do with enthusiasts) as he left, but before he got on the ride - he walked over to the op and asked who was in charge. I was the only lead around, so it was me.
Long story short - he was furious. He was pissed that one of the attendents had tried to assign him a seat - I understood and remained calm. He was pissed that only one train was running, not only here but on many of the coasters - I understood. He then made it a point to tell me that he was "...an ENTHUSIAST!!! And I drove all the way HERE just to ride THIS coaster in the FRONT SEAT!!!" and that he was so furious that he wasn't going to ride at all and that he was going to immediately go to guests services with every one of our names and tell them about it.
As you can imagine, at first I understood, but eventually I had no pity for him. I never raised my voice, I never did anything innapropriate, I just calmly directed him to guests services. I should have just shrugged it off. You get people like that sometimes that you just can't help. I understand their frustration, but I couldn't shrug it off. I wasn't angry, either, I was just...sad, I suppose. Dissapointed. Guilty, even. I felt like I had done something wrong. I did everything I could to try to explain to him....but when you start spouting off things about being an enthusiast, and probably assuming that I would be somehow impressed by that, or that I would really even CARE....it bothered me.
Does everyone in ACE or CBC or even on this board act like that? Of course not. Does anybody on this board AT ALL act like that? Probably not. Probably not a single soul here would have reacted that way in the same situation. But believe me, I thought twice about walking up to coaster people. I didn't stop doing it, but in the back of my mind, every time, was that one guy and the scene he made at "my" coaster (that's what it felt like) and the way he made me feel.
And I'm just one person, one ride op at one park. It something that parks have to deal with on a daily basis, trust me. There may just be a "few bad apples" in the community, but when the community is so large, don't forget, there are thousands of us!, it adds up. It really, really adds up.
In other words, for the love of pete, people, stop being unsafe on coasters, and stop being assholes to the parks and employees. I realize that virtually no one on this board really is like that, but maybe one person who's reading this right now is. It takes the fun out of it for everybody.
Now everyone go out and ride a coaster or something. :) Life's too short.
Now on the other side of the coin. I have been to one event as a coaster fan. That was this years SRM. I was effected very harshly by it. It took me a few weeks to wanna hop back on a ride again. My bar was down on both rides. It was touching my torso area by my personal rule. I was right behind the webmaster of this website on the Raven. He set a good example for people I believe.
I saw some people who if it was me I would of lowered there bars for safety.
I can see CF's view on this. Personally I don't like it cause I am grouped with a bunch of dumbasses who do break the rules.
The parks for me are still for fun. Up until 2001 I never went to a park more than once a summer. Sometimes never. I am very glad of the people I met and the friends I have made. As for a event I don't think I will ever attend another one. I have a much better time just on a normal day.
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Hi.....whats your name again?
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