CP - Force Seat Belts & T Bar Restraints

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BATWING FAN SFA said:

there are 15 other coasters at CP(more than most other parks aside from a certain park in LA)for you all to enjoy so instead of complaining about the one coaster you may no longer be able to ride just enjoy the remaining ones that you can.

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Kind of like how you said people should go to SFA and enjoy the other coasters even though S:ROS was down? Oh wait...nevermind.

-Nate

You guys are all amazing... really...

I hate to tell you this, but the most important person to an amusement park is *not* the coaster enthusiast. It is the General Public. All of the coaster enthusiasts in the world could boycott Cedar Fair and they would lose what -- 100,000 admissions worldwide? In a chain that serves millions per park, that is a small blip in the radar.

So anywho, the park is enforcing new, stricter rules -- so what? This isn't exactly a new thing. After every accident, every park gets a nice little memo with suggestions about what they can do to stop it from happening at their park. This doesn't matter what park it is or how it happened. After someone who was standing in the back of Raven with no harness on flew out, there was a change in the operation of wooden coasters. This is no different.

If everyone on here seriously thinks that making the overweight American guest happy is more important than the safety of a ride, I think that you need to check your thoughts more in detail. Consider:

- This was not the first incident of someone that was overweight falling out of the same style restraints

Luckily for the other guy, he was okay. But Intamin's safety record gives me great concerns. As a slightly overweight person myself, last year I took the stance of not wanting to go on TTD for five years because I was worried about if the could restraints fail to hold a person similiar in size to me in place. I opted not to ride SROS when I was at SFNE last year for the same reason.

Bottom line, Intamin's harnesses are not the most secure in the industry today. They need to relook at their harnesses and redesign them. Cedar Point has decided that instead of closing down MF (and possibly TTD) during the season that they would enforce a much stricter rule on the operation of their rides. Good for them! It may make things go slower, it may make some larger people like myself unable to ride the ride, but it will make the ride so that we don't have another horrible death on an Intamin coaster this year.

This is also not the first incident of a park suddenly changing a ride's rules so that a group of people that had once been able to ride were no longer able to ride. The best example of this that I can think of was that a few years ago, Six Flags changed the height requirement of the American Eagle at Six Flags from 42" to 48" to ride (I think). Suddenly, there were kids that had rode the ride last year that weren't able to ride it anymore. From what I know, there has never been a problem with the American Eagle, and if there has been it hasn't been in the last 10 years.

As for those of you who keep talking about how they need to redesign rides to fit the "average" overweight American, I disagree. Park's that build huge, intense roller coasters are aiming at the teenage to young adult crowd. These are the portion of the population that on average is the smallest bodywise.

On top of that, can you tell me how you could make it so that the operators could sense that someone was too small to ride the ride? How would that conversation even go? "Excuse me ma'am, but I'm going to have to ask you to get off the Screaming Dragster because you simply don't weigh enough for the harness to properly restrain you?" That's insane!

While I would like to have extra-wide seats and harnesses that easily fit my midsection into them, I realize that in tailoring the ride to me, they would endanger the rest of the population. I accept this. I have been eating better and trying to exercise to get myself back into "coaster shape" and if you are a larger person like I am who truly loves coasters, you would take the time out to do that instead of moaning about how they need to make trains to fit you.

thecoasterguy... there isn't one post here that has said that coaster enthusiasts are more important than the GP nor has there been any talk of this being an all inclusive enthusiast problem so where do you get that? We all know that enthusiats make up a small percentage of the crowd and that's fine, but taking that into account all these people that are getting booted from MF because of Intamin's new directive are more than likely non-enthusiasts. These are in fact the GP that you speak of.

You also state that we think that the parks should take the satisfaction of overweight people over safety and that is just a load of crap too. To even suggest such a thing is backwards in thinking without a doubt. Safety is paramount in every amusement park operation no questions asked. Enthusiasts or GP or even non-park goers can all agree on that.

And you confuse me too...at first you say they (the parks) do need to look at reconfiguring the restraints, then you say they don't need to redesign the ride to accomodate larger riders, then you say you'd like to see extra-wide seats. Which is it? And just for a bit of clarification, according to trip reports, not just large people are getting tossed from the ride. It's average folks that may have larger thigh muscles and can't get that extra slack in the seatbelt.

Like I said above, if the park gets enough pressure, and it probably will, then they'll put the squeeze in Intamin to either do deeper seats (ala TTD) or rescend the seatbelt "law", or something. (and since the most inexpensive way to deal with it would be to relax the new rule, I'd bet on that one) You may even see something as drastic as a redesign of the lapbar/seat combo in the off season who knows?

It sucks that the park is put in this hard position we all can agree on that, but they're gonna have to make some serious choices on where to stand on the issue of larger guests or the lack thereof.

I'm sick of people saying that there are 14 more coasters that they can ride! CP doesn't build new coasters to bring in the money for people to say there are 14 more coasters that they can ride. I guess us people with 36" waist and above will just have to go to parks that don't have intamin coasters in it like SFMM

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MotorCityCoasterFan said:
CP...I agree with you. There is a test seat at the entrance of the attraction. The person admitting people to the line should heavily suggest that a guest that may fit beyond the perameters of the ride to sit in the seat. But....then you have an issue with the park getting politically correct. They could upset those that are heavy set at the park.

BTW...if a potential guest scrolls through the park website or reads the park pamphlet..it mentions height and waist restrictions. Weight riders should be under 250 lbs and have a chest no larger than 48". At least I remember seeing that on last year's park guide and website.

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As an aside, I was suggested to the test seat a few times at Wicked Twister last season. So they will mention it sometimes; maybe it depends on how assertive & comfortable the ride op person feels there by the seat.

The silly part was that I'd previously walked past the person and she hadn't suggested I test the seat, rode the ride. Then, as I got back in line, then she mentioned it. I guess I was "so small" (yeah right) that she didn't notice me the first time.

Meanwhile, doing lots of walking and being healthy so that the belts fit better for my next trip!

jwhoogs- you just about hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned. I purchased a fully dressed CP season pass and have yet to use it. I was actually supposed to make my annual May trip up there this week but now due to this I've indefinitely postponed the trip. I've even called the park and inquired as to the process of refunding my season pass. (Which they will since I've not used it yet) If the seatbelt "law" still is in effect by the 2nd week of June, that pass is going back for a refund and the money I get back will go directlhy towards a trip to a SF park.

For me it's all about MF. That's the parks signature ride for me and it's my favorite attraction. I can just see going up there and not being able to ride it and trying not to be sad about it when everywhere I look just about anywhere in the park, I can see part of that roller coaster.

For those of you who are chompin' at the bit to say, "well that's one less person in line at CP" don't bother because my may or may not being in line won't affect you. It's not meant to be a good thing for you either, it's meant to put my money to best use where I can actually enjoy it and whatnot. Heck, chances are, you'll be getting tossed from the ride too!

The Coaster Guy I would also like to point out that children (and thus in the near future teenagers) are the age group that is seeing the biggest increase in obesity so teens will be getting "fatter" real soon and will be extremely pissed if they cant challege the biggest coasters at the park.

Also if I was CP I would be sweating this change, especially if there are people crying when turned away from the ride. GP will not stand for this embaressment and will likely not attend the park again, or if they do it will be many years later. The enthusiasts who are currently boycotting the park will quickly stop as soon as we get word they have changed their policy. Winning back GP will take them much longer. *** Edited 5/18/2004 3:53:23 PM UTC by Touchdown***

Most of the people that I saw turned way May 10 were younger people. I didn't see anyone crying, but a few were upset about standing in line. At least the lines were short that day.

If the ride op was right about one out of 15 being turned away, thats a lot of GP, not just enthusiasts. *** Edited 5/18/2004 4:32:46 PM UTC by CP ismyhome***

When I worked for Disney back in the mid 1990s, there was a maxim we had to keep in mind with anything guest service related:

"Make one guest happy, they'll tell 1-3 people. Make a guest upset and not resolve the situation, they'll tell 9 people."

It was an interesting thing to be aware of in the various situations we'd be in at work. Negativity spreads a lot easier than positivity, evidently!

Still... oh well. Maybe CP and such mandates will force obesity down! Haha.

I don't know what planet you live on, but the average people I know with a 38" waist aren't even in the neighborhood of being "obese."

I'm not sure about that. For example, my BMI of ~30 puts me on the borderline between (the medical definition of) obese and overweight, and I'm between a 36" and a 38", depending on the clothing manufacturer.

Medical obesity is a much tighter standard than you might expect. Here is a good definition.

Edit: standard disclaimer about muscle mass vs. fat, etc. etc. etc.

*** Edited 5/18/2004 5:12:02 PM UTC by Brian Noble***

If that 1 out of every 15 riders turned away is true...

Then (by the stats on RCDB) that equals about 2 people per train and 106 people per hour.

*** Edited 5/18/2004 5:18:21 PM UTC by SLFAKE***

ok, not to be a dolt about this, but alot of argument based on its a safe ride and people rode it last year. the same was being said about sros at sfne and the man who died had ridden it before. that said, maybe re-examining who can ride wasn't such a bad idea. its not a question of discriminating against the larger guests, its a matter of keeping all the guests safe. now is that really a bad thing? there may be redesigns done later on or next year, but for now intamin, and apparently cp would rather err on the side of safety. bad park! bad company! nope, i guess i don't see it as bad.....

if 1 in 15 riders (about 7%) are being turned away, that's 220,000 upset customers that cedar point will have this year. (this number assumes every visitor to the park rides MF. of course, not everyone rides MF, but there are also those people who will be turned away multiple times on different visits throughout the season...a better guess might be ~150,000). And if those people don't come back again because of this, that could be upwards of $10 million that they lose. Plus, this doesn't even take into account the people who don't even bother to go to the park because they've heard or been told about this policy. Eventually, those numbers will add up and cedar point will have to do something about it...in an industry where attendence is everything, it's bad business to upset your customers like this. *** Edited 5/18/2004 5:32:03 PM UTC by Startled Armadillo***

Just to clear up something I'm reading in the counter-posts ...

I don't think anyone arguing that it's a stupid policy is arguing that there's no reason to look into the safety of the ride due to the SFNE incident. What (IMO) people are saying is, the way in which the "safety check" has been carried out ranks somewhere between pisspoor and pathetically awful. I think people would have been much more accepting of a sign out front explaining the ride's lack of availability due to technical issues for a week, than a knee-jerk reaction that has alienated a waist size that's now very much below the "fat" line, and is probably a waist size that many very muscular and fit people have a hard time being under.

I sincerely hope that cooler heads prevail and soon, otherwise Memorial Day weekend is going to be quite the nasty three days at the CP Guest Relations office ...

I can't see people not going to CP over this. I was too fat to ride WT it's first year but that did not stop me from going. If the new regulations prevent me from riding MF, I will just have to lose some more weight which I am already trying to do. I have lost some weight from what I was last year and I plan to lose more. I can't see people with 38 inch waists being denied rides because mine is about 42" and I had no trouble riding this year.

People were upset about TTD last year and they didn't stop going to The Point. This seat belt issue will upset people, but they will still go to The Point. CP just need to do a better job of "weeding" out those who are to large to ride before they stand in line and then have to be asked to exit the train because they are too big.

CPismyhome, a 38" waist would proably be as skinny as I could get, so there is no way that if this policy prevails I will ever be able to ride MF again.

I also cant fit on WT but I dont have a problem with it because I have ridden on an Impulse (freak occurance) and I didnt really care for them. MF is my #4 favorite coaster and anyone who is with me at the park is going to want to ride it which is going to lead to me explaining why I cant go on it and having to do an alternate activity 2.5 hours and meet up with those people again is too much of a hastle.

CP, when I am at school, is 3.5 hours away and when Im home its a days drive, in the past we have fitted it into our vacation trips by alternating routes to bring us through Ohio. Seeing that a majority of my family is not going to be able to fit on the ride theres no way we are going to go and have to skip one of the crown jewels of that park. It would simply taunt us (and unlike TTD last year it would be running which makes it far worse) the whole time we were there and result in a higher level of unhappiness we can easily avoid by going to another park of its caliber (example PKI, BGW, Kennywood, etc).

Also there is no way Im going to orgainize a trip for my friends again and wake up at 4am to drive there on one of my precious sleep in days to have to watch them enjoy MF. It is possible to resist the call of CP and I plan to unless they fix MF. *** Edited 5/18/2004 6:22:04 PM UTC by Touchdown***

Brian, that link you gave said that obese for men is at a 40 inch waist.

This issue that has been brought up, is making me decide if i want to even redeem my season pass. I was looking forward to riding MF many times this summer, but if the case is that I can not fit on it then I am highly reconsidering even stepping a foot into the park. Sure I am of the bigger crowd, but genetics took over unfortunatly as my whole family is large. I am not the greatest athlete in the world, but i do have daily activity (and that doesn't include using the remote for you smart a**es out there!)

In my opinion Intamin or CP should have 2 seat belts on each seat, one for the "normal" people and one for the "fat" people. and if you are unable to fit into neither of them then your just SOL. That is my opinion, but flooding the CP management with complaints could get something done. Since summer is just beginning who knows...there could be law suits galore for discrimination of "heavy" people. I know i'd be in on it!

RavenTTD, quote it correctly:

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Another indicator of being overweight or obese is a waist circumference of over 35" for females or over 40" for males.

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(Empahsis mine.)

As in "you are obese if your BMI > 30 or your waist is ..." Not as in "you are not obese if your waist is less than 40..."

Believe me, I killed myself going from 240 to 210 last year, and have been creeping up since falling off the "living more healthily" wagon. And, I was plenty P.O.'d to find out that I still had another 20 pounds to go before I was no longer medically overweight. I don't like the 30 BMI cutoff any more than you do, but I don't make up the medical definitions.

If I did, I'd start by rewriting the DSM-IV, but that's another post for another time.

*** Edited 5/18/2004 6:37:48 PM UTC by Brian Noble***