Clementon Park's new owners hope to improve experience

............................................________
....................................,.-'"...................``~.,
.............................,.-"..................................."-.,
.........................,/...............................................":,
.....................,?......................................................,
.................../...........................................................,}
................./......................................................,:`^`..}
.............../...................................................,:"........./
..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../
............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`........_/
..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....}
...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../
...,,,___.`~,......"~.,....................`.....}............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-"
............/.`~,......`-...................................../
.............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__
,,_..........}.>-._...................................|..............`=~-,
.....`=~-,__......`,.................................
...................`=~-,,.,...............................
................................`:,,...........................`..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_..........._,-%.......`
...................................,

That is all.

I'm laughing too, you're trying to compare some 3rd rate city to the most congested area in the country. Commuting from Jackson to Philly does not equate to commuting from sandusky to toledo or whatever the hell you said. There are more people here, with more cars, and less room. So while living in Jackson may not look like a big deal to commute to Philadelphia, it would probably take you 2 hours to do it. 95 south is a parking lot, your public transportation options would be driving a half hour and taking a train with 2 transfers.

The only decent public transportation options from Jersey follow along the River towns, with a transfer in Camden to the Patco High Speed Line and you have the Patco line itself which roughly follows the path of the White Horse Pike, (Rt 30) due east of downtown Philadelphia.

billb7581 said:
People vacation at the shore for weeks at a time. People go to Six Flags for the day.

Because...Say it with me everyone...Six Flags doesn't have a hotel. lol

billb7581 said:
I'm laughing too, you're trying to compare some 3rd rate city to the most congested area in the country. Commuting from Jackson to Philly does not equate to commuting from sandusky to toledo or whatever the hell you said. There are more people here, with more cars, and less room. So while living in Jackson may not look like a big deal to commute to Philadelphia, it would probably take you 2 hours to do it. 95 south is a parking lot, your public transportation options would be driving a half hour and taking a train with 2 transfers.

The only decent public transportation options from Jersey follow along the River towns, with a transfer in Camden to the Patco High Speed Line and you have the Patco line itself which roughly follows the path of the White Horse Pike, (Rt 30) due east of downtown Philadelphia.

What the...dude, this was about building a hotel, not about building a city. Also, that wasn't even a topic of discussion, it was just used to illustrate the surroundings of the park, travel patterns, infrastructure, and everything else that doesn't relate to any of what you just said. I just...don't...get it!

So 95 is a parking lot where it'll take two hours or more to get home and yet nobody will want yo stay at a hotel because everybody lives an hour away. Got it.

ZING!

billb7581 said:
...you're trying to compare some 3rd rate city to the most congested area in the country. Commuting from Jackson to Philly does not equate to commuting from sandusky to toledo...

You really don't know what you are talking about at all. According to this Forbes article, Philly is not even in the top five most congested cities list. NYC is number two, and D.C. is number five, but Philly is not "the most congested area in the country", like you claim.

And Cleveland is the 2nd most populated city in Ohio, and resides in the most populated county in the State. Unless you somehow twist around the numbers, it is definitely not a "third rate" city, which is defined as:

What does that have to do with the future building of a hotel near Six Flags Great Adventure in Jackson New Jersey? Nothing that I can think of, but it sure does show that you don't know what you are talking about.

And is the 2nd most populated city in Ohio, and resides in the most populated county in the State

You're talking about 2 million people in greater Cleveland vs 6 million in the Philadelphia Metro. It's relative rank vs other cities in Ohio is irrevalent. It is the 45th largest city in the US. Philly is 5th. If anyone here is having fun with numbers it's you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

In NJ there are over 4X as many people per square mile. It's congested with respect to the sheer amount of people and cars there are in a small area.

So 95 is a parking lot where it'll take two hours or more to get home and yet nobody will want yo stay at a hotel because everybody lives an hour away. Got it.

This makes no sense.

Traffic is congested trying to get into the city in the morning, not get out.

If you were going to Great Adventure, you wouldn't be coming home, before it opened.

There really isn't a bad time to take 95 north. Typically the shore routes and the turnpike heading out toward the Poconos is where you hit all the traffic. On holidays and weekends.

You succeeded in lulling me into forgetting the real issue. Lets get back on track.

1. Why would you say that Philly is "the most congested place in the universe, or something", when it isn't? (Let me answer for you... You desperately made something up.)

2. We have discovered somewhere within the ten pages of this topic, so far, that about three million people visit SFGAdv every year. right? (The answer is "yes")

3. The NJ Turnpike (I-95) passes within about 11 miles of the Six Flags park, and is heavily traveled, and you claim that a hotel near the park wouldn't get enough business to stay open? (The answer is "yes".)

4. Are there many, many examples of seasonally operated hotels, some exclusively marketed exclusively for a nearby theme park, that are profitable? (The answer to this one is "yes".)

5. Has Six Flags talked to the media about attempting to get a hotel built on or near their NJ property for a few years now? (Yes again.)

6. Have Six Flags given reason why a hotel hasn't been built at near the NJ park yet? Has the company also been some financial problems and leadership changes lately? ("Yes and yes.")

7. Did Six Flags Great Adventure build a second gated water park, not included with theme park admission? Would that show that their possible long-term plans are to attract multiple-day visitors to their attraction, just like many other parks have done, including Cedar Point and Disneyland? ("Yes" to both questions again.)

8. Shall I go on? (Please no.)

1. Why would you say that Philly is "the most congested place in the universe, or something", when it isn't? (Let me answer for you... You desperately made something up.)

I did no such thing New Jersey is the most densley populated state in the union PA is 9th. You're tangential argument about Akron being the 2nd biggest city in Ohio or whatever the hell you said was irrevelant.

2. We have discovered somewhere within the ten pages of this topic, so far, that about three million people visit SFGAdv every year. right? (The answer is "yes")

And we also learned that the upper limit for attendance at most amusement parks is in the 3 million range.

3. The NJ Turnpike (I-95) passes within about 11 miles of the Six Flags park, and is heavily traveled, and you claim that a hotel near the park wouldn't get enough business to stay open? (The answer is "yes".)

Because there is nothing else there..... even your boy Gonch admitted this, and said it was unusual .

4. Are there many, many examples of seasonally operated hotels, some exclusively marketed exclusively for a nearby theme park, that are profitable? (The answer to this one is "yes".)

In Sandsuky yes... anywhere in New Jersey, no. Aside from the Shore towns which arent marketing exclusively to an Amusement park... they are marketing to the fact they are located near the Atlantic Ocean and possibly an amusement park. This may be a property tax issue, as NJ has the highest property taxes in the nation. Shore towns have relatively low property taxes because they tax the hell out of the tourists and renters. My in laws live in Sea Isle city and their taxes are 2 grand, for a similarly sized house in my neck of the woods, you would pay 8-10K

5. Has Six Flags talked to the media about attempting to get a hotel built on or near their NJ property for a few years now? (Yes again.)

Agreed... they've had the zoning for awhile now.

6. Have Six Flags given reason why a hotel hasn't been built at near the NJ park yet? Has the company also been some financial problems and leadership changes lately? ("Yes and yes.")

They haven't explicitly said why. Someone offered the opinion that wastewater treatment was the issue. The ROI may not be enough to overcome this issue, admittedly that's just my supposition .

7. Did Six Flags Great Adventure build a second gated water park, not included with theme park admission? Would that show that their possible long-term plans are to attract multiple-day visitors to their attraction, just like many other parks have done, including Cedar Point and Disneyland? ("Yes" to both questions again.)

They pretty much have to have a waterpark just to compete in the marketplace, with Sesame Place, and all the Shore towns with amusements having waterparks nearby.

8. Shall I go on? (Please no.)

Lets just leave it at that, and agree to disagree.

I'm just not sure why my surburban sprawl comment drew so much controversy. The suburbs of Philly just dont sprawl out that far, why is this so hard to believe?

billb7581 said:
....or whatever the hell you said was irrevelant.

Captain Irrelevant, this is Control, please come in....

Damn it, we lost the signal again.

(Talk about the pot calling the kettle irrelevant... or irrevelent, whatever that may be.) :)

billb7581 said:
What does the road situation at CP 100 years ago have to do with anything?

I just threw that line in there to show just how ridiculous your whole argument really is.

-There wasn't already a highway to CP for 100 years prior to 1970, so there will never be one.

-There isn't a Walmart in my neighborhood, so there will never be one.

-There isn't a McDonald's at the corner, so there will never be one.

-There wasn't a Dairy Queen right outside Cedar Point, so there will never be one.

These are all the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT as your If there isn't already a hotel there, then there will never be one" line you keep spouting. Do you see how ridiculous that argument is now???

[Rhetorical question since we all know the answer to that after hundreds of posts through 2 separate threads]

Someone pass me the popcorn bucket. I'm not in the rest of this show.

You've twisted what I originally said.

I never said that a hotel wouldn't be built because there wasn't one. I've always mantained that a hotel wouldn't be built because there was insufficient demand for one.

Demand creates supply... at one time AOL was the only ISP you could get, but the marketplace demanded (better) internet access, so now you have more choices.

The Ohio interstate system really doesn't pertain to anything I said. Interstate access to Six Flags was never the issue, It's located at the intersection of the NJT and 195, Gonchar said it was odd there was nothing around there, I merely offered my thoughts why.

Distance from Philadelphia.

A lot of state owned land

Adjacent to an Army and Air Force Base may be not that desirable with the gun ranges and planes constantly taking off and landing.

I'm not making any of this up. The population is clustered along the Delaware River Adjacent to Philly, up north adjacent to NYC, and along the shore. The wide swath between the GSP and the NJTP is mostly green or yellow on this map.

http://www.aboutnewjersey.com/AboutNewJersey/Facts/populationPeople.php

So. Uh. 95 south is a parking lot but 95 north has no traffic. Right. Gotcha.

Shoot. I spilled my popcorn from laughing so hard.

billb7581 said:
I never said that a hotel wouldn't be built because there wasn't one. I've always mantained that a hotel wouldn't be built because there was insufficient demand for one.

There is insufficient demand for a hotel there even though about three million people visit the park per year? Even though, as you say, it is located in the most congested area in the country? Even though they have more than one days worth of attractions to visit? Even though there isn't another hotel in the area to compete with? Do you seriously believe that SF would be looking forward to building a hotel if their wasn't sufficient demand for one?

Adjacent to an Army and Air Force Base may be not that desirable with the gun ranges and planes constantly taking off and landing.

Is that new? I don't remember hearing that reason from you yet. In rebuttal, I don't see the theme park having any problems with having the Air Force base nearby. If a park can exist near an air force base, so can a new hotel. Giving that as a reason is a distraction and not valid.

I'm not making any of this up. The population is (bla bla bla...)

If we have already established that the park gets (clears throat) three million guests per year (lol), and we have already established that the park is in the most heavily populated State in the country, and between two of the most populated cities in the country, then how on earth does that solidify that there is not sufficient demand for a hotel near Six Flags Great Adventure? I am lost.

Because billb says so.

billb7581 said:
I never said that a hotel wouldn't be built because there wasn't one. I've always mantained that a hotel wouldn't be built because there was insufficient demand for one.

Well, you have to admit that this sure can be taken that way.

billb7581 said: More correctly I should have linked "Straw Man" because you keep appealing to something I never said.

billb7581 said: I never said that a hotel wouldn't be built because there wasn't one. I've always mantained that a hotel wouldn't be built because there was insufficient demand for one.

And yet....

billb7581 also said: If it were that easy, and such a sure fire money maker, they'd already be doing it.

billb7581 also said: If it's such a sure fire thing why wouldn't Aloft or someone just plop one down right there?

billb7581 also said: Great Adventure has been there 30 years, why hasn't a hotel ever materialized... hmmmm?

You can say you've been misunderstood, but you can't say you never said that the current lack of a hotel is justification for your argument that there shouldn't be one. Your statements certainly do indicate you believe that if a hotel could be successful, it would be there already. And folks are pointing out that all successful endeavors had to be created at one time or another. The hotel's absence is not a sole indication that demand is lacking.

EDITED to add: Damn it, Gonch! :) (Please consider the extra effort I took to be an example of how to effectively quote from various posts...;) )

I demand clean renewable energy nationwide....but because we don't have it yet, is that sufficient proof that it will never happen?

Somewhere, somehow, Schrodinger's cat is still in the box....Dead Or Alive...you spin me round! (like a record baby).... :)