Nate: Sometime late this season Raptor had to have one of the rails re-welded (perhaps a CP local can expound).
And about Steve O., I was very careful to say "engineered" not "designed" for the very reason that R.T. is given design credit. But even still, Toomer, Morgan, and Okamoto were the head 'tech' guys during the creation of Steel Phantom. By the time KW wanted Phantom's Revenge, none of those guys were there. Toomer retired and was thus unavailable. But Morgan and Okamoto were still in the business, albeit at a new company. It seems completely reasonable that KennyWood would seek out the "people" most familar with the project rather than just the "company name" which is on the ride.
Furthermore, who knows? Maybe the *did* talk to Arrow and they weren't interested. All this is just speculation anyway.
jeremy
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Besides, if we were really shutting down people we disagreed with, would Jeremy (2Hostyl) still be around? :) I think not. - Jeff 1/24/02
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Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
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You can't spell "dishonorable" without "honorable."
*** This post was edited by Den on 1/29/2002. ***
ApolloAndy said:
People keep talking about problems with Big One at Blackpool. What was/are the problems?
Trains that collide with each other. Presumably a control problem.
Den said: I don't want to get involved in this argument, but I do want to concur with Ravenguy that Vortex *is* one of the most important coasters of all time. It was the first mega-looper....a coaster that combined massive hills with loops. It was the tallest coaster in the world when introduced
Not to be nitpicky here, but the Vekoma boomerangs had six inversions first. Also, Marineworld's Dragon Mountain has a 186' lift (I believe) but I know what you meant, even though I don't agree that 6 inversions is "just about the limit".
Coasterjedi's post is the closest thing to what parks are probably thinking. Arrow has sparked interest but most parks aren't willing to take the risk with a multi-million dollar machine. So they'll pay a bit more to get the proven B&M quality. *That* answers the question posed.
-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 1/29/2002. ***
It's just WAY too early to tell one way or another...
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Have you ever considered that it may not be the park that's the problem, but YOU???
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 1/29/2002. ***
Not to be nitpicky here, but the Vekoma boomerangs had six inversions first. Also, Marineworld's Dragon Mountain has a 186' lift (I believe) but I know what you meant, even though I don't agree that 6 inversions is "just about the limit".
All right, then Vortex was the first coaster to feature 6 *separate* inversions, without going through the same three inversions twice. And obviously 6 inversions isn't any kind of limit; it just seems that the loop wars "stalled" there, as only a few coasters have gone over that.
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You can't spell "dishonorable" without "honorable."
Matthew said:
But here is the thing with B&M, there are limited possiblities for coaster designs with certain number of inversions. How many ways are there to flip guests upside down 5 time? Until B&M can come up with new inversions, the possibilities are limited!
Also, the money issue. Don't forget that shipping (of the track and supports) is really expensive from Europe to the United States bringing the price up for the coasters. But also, B&M track is bulkier than Arrow's track raising prices slightly higher. B&M is regarding very highly in the coaster industry allowing them to have high prices (sort of like expensive cars) even though they are not necessarily any better than another company.
Funny thing is, Most of B&M's Track is made right here in Cincinati OH! :) Cost? I think it is more in the track itself as B&M's Track seems to be much more rigged and more material into them.
Chuck
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http://home.earthlink.net/~sfmm84
Six Flags Magic Mountain Xtreme Guide
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Charles Nungester
Park Jockey :)
Den said:
All right, then Vortex was the first coaster to feature 6 *separate* inversions, without going through the same three inversions twice. And obviously 6 inversions isn't any kind of limit; it just seems that the loop wars "stalled" there, as only a few coasters have gone over that.
I hate to nitpick as well, but that's simply not true. The year directly after Vortex was installed, SFGAm opened the first ever 7-looper, Shockwave. The very next year was GASM at SFGAd, then Viper at SFMM. There are actually quite a few coasters that have seven or more inversions...just a few are:
Montu, Kumba, Dragon Khan, Medusa East, Medusa West, Kraken, Monte Makaya, Incredible Hulk, and new this year is Colossus with 10 inversions.
Then there are the countless others with six inversions that I won't bother listing. Suffice to say, there are quite a few coasters with six or more inversions.
I do agree though, that Vortex played an important role with the mega-looper genre however. PKI displayed this fact when they showed their 35th anniversary vid at NCC this year.
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"That's BS you MF! They're WT!" -- CP's R&D team
DWeaver said:
Once again Coasterdude you are making broad assumptions. Unless you can get into the minds of park execs which you can't, these *are* your opinions. Now here's mine(whether it matters or not).
I agree there, Broad.
Arrow simply did not have an appealing product available, most large chains already have multi-loopers, mine trains, suspended coasters and hypercoasters. What else did Arrow have to offer until the 4D/Arrowbatic? You tell me?I don't believe that, The Arrobatic has been available for about 4 years now. The have sold many a Mouse too and I am unsure but I believe the suspended is still available if requested.
The company themselves admit they slacked off most of the 90's, and didn't have the *product* available to compete with B&M and Intamin. Without the product, how in the heck can you tell me what a park would or wouldn't buy?
Didn't take long after the 4D became available for a park to buy one now did it?
I think the fact that many if if not all parks who wanted a looper already had one. Im not sure if they hyper aspect left their lineup with Morgan.Chuck
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Have you ever considered that it may not be the park that's the problem, but YOU???*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 1/29/2002. ***
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 1/29/2002. ***
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Charles Nungester
Park Jockey :)
Arrow has let themselves go down the drains, but they are trying to fix that and it will only take time. You have to understand that Arrow has been designing coasters for around 30 years. Back then, the computer technology available was not even comparable to what we have today. Most calculations were probably done by hand and a calculator. Then again, computer technology from 10 years ago isn't even comparable to todays standards. When a new concept comes out, there are bound to be problems. From stress fractuers to minor glitches, I don't care what company it is, no one is perfect. Design plays a large roll in the experience of a ride, but parks must maintian them as well. Arrow offers new trains, which can revitalize a forgotten coaster, but it is the parks job to take that frist step. Everything ages, as well as B&M coasters. I have yet to ride Iron Wolf, but from what I hear, it is starting to get pretty rough. Each company has it's strengths and weaknesses, and we must realize that. Perfection can not be expected from anyone. We may complain that Arrow coasters are too rough or that B&M coasters are forceless, but thats expected. Once again, the feeling of a ride comes back to design. As far as I know, Arrow is capable of making a coaster that is a smooth as a B&M. Well, if they change the position of the heartline on their coasters, we'll just have another Wildfire or Kumba. I do like B&M coasters more than most Arrows, but there will come a time when we want something different. If Arrow goes out of business, we might not have those differences.
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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.
Saying that parks are more unhappy with Arrow because of maintainence headaches isn't fair. My Honda has maintainence headaches as well, and Honda is regarded as top tier in terms of quality. The issue? Well, my car is an 87...
Yes, there are a number of scrapped/SBNO/Unpopular Arrow coasters around the world. Most of these are 20+ years old. Not a single B&M is that old, most Arrows, when they were 10 and under, were still extremely popular, and probably would still be if newer rides didn't push them out of the spotlight.
I am not a park CEO, but I was talking to one on the phone a few weeks ago, after recently installing and opening an Arrow coaster over the Christmas break. This park isn't a small park that can't afford better than Arrow - the park has several Intamin rides, a coaster and a Giant Drop are among them. They were so impressed by the ride, the parks head engineer is currently not only talking about new attractions for the park, but also, a major redevelopment for one of the older coasters in the park.
And another thing, still on the Kennywood thing. He commented to me that if Arrow are unwilling to do this (as he said they, and others, were at IAAPA), then other companies are next- Vekoma, Kumbak and Morgan are all on the list.
This has really drifted away from what it was originally talking about. I am totally convinced that after their current financial troubles are sorted out, which I'd imagine can't be far away, SFMM will have finally paid them for X, and I would say are definately in talks for a few more of the ride for other SF parks within the next few years. Look, Arrow have only built a few loopers in the past few years, all of which are said to have B&M comparable smoothness.
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Greatest movie in the history of mankind -- ~Young Einstein~
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