B&M Expensive Arrow?
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The Scream Site
http://www.screamsite.cjb.net
If you're accusing B&M of not being creative, I think 5 heartlines in a row can certainly be categorized as "not creative."
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"That's BS you MF! They're WT!" -- CP's R&D team
How many have had gripes about Arrow? *Plenty.* Parks will stick with what's proven and will pay the extra money to do so.
B & M ARE the park's favorite. Their working proces with coasters ia far more profesionel than for example let's say Intamin. A couple of months ago I saw some sales papers for an Intamin Looper, and it was full of errors. They wrote something on that page, and then they wrote something completely different on another page.
And about that thing on blaming B & M for making forceless coasters. B & M just does what they are told to do. If the park wants a coasters with a maximum of 4Gs, than that's what they'll get. The parks decide not the desgner.
Okay?
coasterdude318 said:
How many have had gripes about Arrow? *Plenty.*
You know, until you've bought and run a Arrow coaster, how do you know? Do you personally know the heads of *plenty* of parks, and have they made you well aware of their gripes with Arrow? I would be really interested to know who these people are you are talking with, because i really can't think of any parks that should have a major gripe with Arrow. Ok, Blackpool, perhaps. That's all i can think of at the moment.
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Father Lucifer, you never looked so sane. You did always did prefer the drizzle to the rain
1) On any B&M's I have ridden, I did not notice that they were an exact replica (I refuse to use the word clone in this case) simply because they may have had the elements in the same order. Besides, only freaks like us who travel far and wide to different parks would notice this. The vase majority of people who only get to one or two parks on a regular basis would not.
2) This idea that B&M's are forceless. I have never encountered one that is forceless. The latest of theirs that I have ridden, Talon, has some nice forces through out its layout. Another, Great Bear, while much tamer than many, still has some good forces in the opening heliz and loop. I guess it is all relative. Some people like their force to not be painful, some like to pass out.
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"I wasn't always this cynical, but then I started kindergarden..."
I bet they are!!!
Think of it this way. When you create a coaster in RCT, your track choices are limited (large loop, small loop, half loop, etc.) Why? It's so that the dimensions, physics, heights, and such are always the same. All the computer has to do is plug the entering speed into the formula and BAM, out comes g's, exit speed, etc.
I'll bet that some of B&M's elements are canned the same way. Why go through the engineering and manufacturing expense of designing a 100' loop, a 110' loop, and a 120' loop? Just design one, and manage your transitions so that you can set the top where you want, and calculate your energy for the next part of the ride.
Anyways, just my $0.02
Later,
EV
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"Just remember, wherever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
That may be your opinion...but IMO the straight spots on M-Force are boring. I would rather be going over a extremely small bunny hop and getting some major air like on Phantom's Revenge.
I like Intamin's style...track, supports, taking risks, trains...but I never did like their layouts. Not one coaster company is perfect and one never will be...it's a competitive business and they all do their own thing...and I think we can all agree...most of the time they do it well.
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The legend lives!
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PoTP acolyte - remove fear to reply
Son of Drop Zone - PKI CoasterCamp I Champions!!!
ravenguy98 said:
coasterdude318 said:
How many have had gripes about Arrow? *Plenty.*You know, until you've bought and run a Arrow coaster, how do you know? Do you personally know the heads of *plenty* of parks, and have they made you well aware of their gripes with Arrow? I would be really interested to know who these people are you are talking with, because i really can't think of any parks that should have a major gripe with Arrow. Ok, Blackpool, perhaps. That's all i can think of at the moment.
Here's a list of parks I know have had problems with Arrow (off the top of my head here):
SFGAm (Shockwave), SFMM (X), BGW (Drachen Fire), WoF (Extremeroller), Valleyfair (Excalibur), PKI (Bat), SFStL (River King Mine Train - standup cars), Kennywood (Steel Phantom), SFGAdv (GASM), CP (Magnum), Alton (Arrow's Pipelines), and you mentioned Blackpool (Big One). Is that enough for you? Many of these parks have decided to on longer make purchases from Arrow because of it. In comparison, I can't think of any parks that have had problems with B&M coasters. You don't have to know the heads of the parks to know most of this.
-Nate(Edit: Forgot one!)
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 1/28/2002. ***
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Have you ever considered that it may not be the park that's the problem, but YOU???
SFGAm (Shockwave): The ride is still popular, and I don't know why SFGAm would have a gripe about this ride. Its rough, yeah, but that's the way that loopers were back then. Did they expect it to be smooth when they bought it? Maybe you could be more specific.
SFMM (X) - Maybe. They did get X for cheap as hell, and what they got is the best steel coaster in the world. Until you talk to someone at SFMM, you really don't know how they feel about the ride.
BGW (Drachen Fire) - good call.
PKI (Bat) - but they went on to build Adventure Express, and Vortex, one of the most popular and signifigant coasters in history. If they have such a gripe with arrow, why did they keep building them?
SFStL (River King Mine Train - standup cars): I had no previous knowledge of this. They put standup cars on this thing?
Kennywood (Steel Phantom) - once again, you really don't know how Kennywood feels about the whole thing, do you? What they got was a great ride for the time, and one that needed to be drastically overhauled because of space limitiations, cost issues, and, most importantly, i would think, waining popularity. Maybe you have a point, maybe you don't. We really don't know.
SFGAdv (GASM) - see what i said about shockwave
CP (Magnum) - WTF? What CP has here is one of the most significant, and most beloved coasters in the world. There were issues with the 3rd drop, but those were ironed out well. I really don't see why CP would have a "gripe" with arrow about this ride, seeing as it pretty much defined them as the coaster capitol of the world.
Alton (Arrow's Pipelines) - as far as I can tell, all rumors. Show me some proof that there were really going to be built and I'll take your point as given.
"Many of these parks have decided to on longer make purchases from Arrow because of it."
Once again, you are looking way too far into this. You don't have an office in any of the parks, and you don't really know their thought processes to really know if they have a "gripe" with arrow. Arrow's ride instalations have overwhelmingly been positive things for the industry, and if you don't think so...well, I don't know how to finish that.
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Father Lucifer, you never looked so sane. You did always did prefer the drizzle to the rain
Huh! I know a park wich is not very happy with Arrow. And yes that comes from the "office"...
And I can tell you that it's not really one park out of 1000 which thinks that Arrow is a bad choice, when i comes to buying a coaster. I won't name the reasons why, cuz you probably already know them. The reason why B & M, Vekoma and Intamin are in the top of everybody's list, is simply because:
They are reliable
They make good coasters
They have high capacity
ect.
Why do you think nobody wants an Arrow coaster? Because they don't have what it takes to be a good company. They may have a good design on their hands with the 4D, but it requiers so much space that only the biggest of the biggest parks could have one. Could you ever imagine for example Alton Towers getting a 4D? You wouldn't be able to do anything because of the lack of space and height available. Also the spinning of the cars, are far from perfect, and the track is also to big and ugly. Also a big problem with the 4D is the number of supports. Do you know how much a footer coasts? 7000 dollars and upwards. And that's NOT included in the price.
*** This post was edited by danish_d on 1/28/2002. ***
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Have you ever considered that it may not be the park that's the problem, but YOU???
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 1/28/2002. ***
as for coasters being rough: that was the way they were designed, but if Arrow doesn't iron out their coasters then parks may start to have a problem with them. Arrow was a great pioneer in coaster technology and they made great rides back in the day, but that day is over. they dropped the ball and, I believe, that they will have to prove themselves to parks before they get back up to the level that B&M is at now.
both companies are extremly creative, but B&M does seem to hold the best track record right now. and I don't see how B&M have been any less creative than Arrow (Corkscrews, Megaloopers, Suspendeds). if the parks don't push the companies then they'll get clones or near clones. don't blame the manu. because the park is content to have a coaster that is identical to another coaster half a world away from the people who will be riding it most.
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Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park
ravenguy98 said:
SFGAm (Shockwave): The ride is still popular, and I don't know why SFGAm would have a gripe about this ride. Its rough, yeah, but that's the way that loopers were back then. Did they expect it to be smooth when they bought it? Maybe you could be more specific.
Ahahahahahahahahah!!!! Popular my right eye! How is a coaster popular when it is a *walk-on* after 2pm even on the busiest of days?! That must make Raging Bull the most popular coaster on the planet. :-p
Oh, and about why they'd gripe about Arrow...I dunno, do you think parks enjoy having to reweld track every week? How about holes forming in the track, causing a lengthy (longer than a week) closure? Sure doesn't sound like a company I want making my coasters. :-\
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"That's BS you MF! They're WT!" -- CP's R&D team
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