Big Dipper to Cedar Point?

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Rob Ascough said:
As far as I know, no one suggested the guy abducts little children and locks them up in his basement or drowns bunnies in his tub.

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Actually, I've seen pretty hateful stuff, but that wasn't the point of my original post. I'm not going to start one of these circular debates, but I thought there was a valid comparison.

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So it's not okay to criticize Kinzel, but it's okay to call Munch a ranting jerk?

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Huh? I don't remember saying that. I was making a comparison, not taking a side.

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why is he suddenly one of the bad guys? That makes absolutely no sense.

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Does it make sense to try to save a coaster and then get upset that it's being saved (whether it's fact or fiction)? Just because he's one of the good guys, other coaster enthusiasts are supposed to automatically agree with his tactics and not question his motives?

*** Edited 4/24/2008 3:36:14 PM UTC by Gemini***

Obviously, Rob, Munch changed his mind. Someone forwarded me a copy of his original message and it quite clearly indicated a communications plan which stated where the information should and should not be discussed, along with a notation that such discussion was intended to be embargoed until after Cedar Fair made an announcement. Obviously that information was not included in the information that was received by WBNS and reported here by PREMiERdrum, who indicated more than once that he had checked his sources.

I notice that the only announcement from Cedar Fair so far today is a declaration of their next quarterly $0.48 cash distribution. I also noticed that the random photo that came up next to that press release when I looked it up just happened to be a picture of Geauga Lake's Ferris wheel. :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Here is something of an opinion, and I won't win any awards for this, but.....

The Dipper is a good ride. Good ride. Its a Miller, and with only 12 left, yes, its historical.

My opinion, the RWB is better. Its my opinion. It hurts to lose it, and in the business I am in, its a 90% shot it will.

If I was Cedar Point, and had to pull the trigger on a boardwalk project, which they have been in discussion over, ever since I worked there in 1990, I would.....and there are big if's, build another coaster on site.

No disrespect to the Dipper, but if I had to rebuild a lost classic, there were better rides at Euclid Beach, or at Ohio's most storied park southwest, Coney Island. Yes, Coney Island was beloved.

Euclid and Coney carried some major hardware, owners, and managers. Much more than Geauga ever did. Geauga Lake didn't really break out of the mold until Sea World showed up.

Even Cedar Point had the Cyclone. I am certain much better, and with the space limitations, batter choice.

No one will be happy. But I will tell you this: There will be no Dipper standing next summer in that location.

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Was Kahiki stuff auctioned? Or did it all get put back in storage again? That which didn't end up "on display" outside the offices of the frozen food company, anyway...I saw the stuff from the Kahiki facade a couple of weeks ago as I was driving up IR-270 in Gahanna.

The Kahiki is a kind of an odd story, as it didn't fail, in fact it was doing quite well. But Walgreens has more money than either sense or sense of history, and they literally offered the owner a boatload of money to buy the property and knock the restaurant down. I still wouldn't count the place out just yet. The trick is, there aren't very many properties in Columbus that are good locations with buildings that look like inverted long-boats...

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Did you not know they opened up the Tropical Bistro? The original chefs, waiters, owners, etc. opened up the Bistro 2 years ago. They had many old artifacts from Kahiki there, and now that place failed, and all of the stuff was auctioned off. I didnt mean to say the Kahiki "failed"; the Bistro did...about 60 days ago. *** Edited 4/24/2008 4:34:02 PM UTC by OhioStater***

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Jeff said:
If he was acting in an official capacity for ACE, then that organization is more screwed up than I thought, and has a pretty intense leadership failure too.

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PREMiERdrum said
Further, it was a statement made my a senior official (treasurer) for a large organization (ACE). It also was regarding, at least in part, specific development plans being put together by both ACE and the author's business.

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He is not the treasurer, he is not an officer, he is simply the historian, and no he is not acting on behalf of ACE or in any official capacity. None of these actions were sanctioned by ACE.

Please do me a favor and send me an e-mail or a PM with the actual header information from that fax (the originating phone number). I would like to know if it really did come from Richard. Anyone can make up a cover sheet.

There are two things going on here. One is a story, one is not. One is the underhanded Munch-induced flaming of Cedar Fair because they might do something that doesn't fit his agenda. The other thing is a bona fide story, that Cedar Fair is considering moving the ride themselves. Seeing as how there is no official communication from the company on the actual story, that just leaves a bunch of boring gossip from a hater who can't move on with his life following the closing of an amusement park.

I for one would applaud moving the ride to CP. But you know, I'll wait for a press release from the company, not some bitter guy with an agenda.

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Jeffrey Seifert said:

Please do me a favor and send me an e-mail or a PM with the actual header information from that fax (the originating phone number). I would like to know if it really did come from Richard. Anyone can make up a cover sheet.

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Actually, Jeffrey, the header information gets put there by the fax machine, so anybody who wants to can fake that, too. All you need is access to the machine's setup functions, and if you're faxing from a computer, those functions are usually just a prefpane away...

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

^But the sender (let's assume for this post it was NOT Richard himself) might not have thought to overwrite the sending fax number...

Or it might have been sent from Richard's fax machine by someone else who should NOT have sent it...or at least not yet. In any case, the tone is a little....negative....considering there's the prospect of saving one of the few remaining Millers, and that two other U.S. Millers are on the proverbial chopping block.

Just saying there are lots of possibilities, and it's a little early to condemn anyone with the limited information we have.

Way to kill a fun thread with reason and restraint, 'gator.

exactly Gator thanks for saying that!

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Brian Noble said:Way to kill a fun thread with reason and restraint, 'gator.

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I do what I can.... :)

If this is a bona fide story, then I'll feel free to daydream.

Hmmm... Bigger Dipper at Cedar Point. There is certainly more than one spot they could use to shoehorn it in. But I think using it to anchor a new pier would be fantastic. Imagine it jutting out onto Lake Erie between Wicked Twister and Aquatic Stadium. (Some jiggering with WT's line would be required). They could even theme it with older rides, as a "Classic" section.

Accompanying BD in its new, gorgeous locale would be such old school attractions as rocket planes, a double wheel, and FLYERS! And lest one picture some tired, second hand carnival, CP could do it up right, with landscaping and lots of theming, color and lights. Enough to even make Gonch want to stay. (Since it's a boardwalk, the trees would have to remain relegated to more 'charming' portions of the park.)

Betcha the whole thing could be brought in for under $25 million. Cedar Fair gets a whole new section of their park, improving capacity and turning the peninsula into an 'L'. Plus they get to be the good guys while continuing to force SFMM eat its dust in the coaster count wars.

Downside: this would never happen for 2009 -- actually, any possible relocation design wouldn't see BD up and running before at least 2010, maybe later. And the pier concept would require a good bit of bureaucracy navigation (read: a long time) dealing with Army Corps of Engineers, not to mention all the Great Lakes state and provincial governments.

I still think this is a pipe dream. And if there were real plans with real investors to keep BD at its current location as part of some commercial project, that would be preferable, at least from the standpoint of historic preservation.

Hmm...I like the pier idea. It doesn't hurt to dream...unless you are sitting at the back of your algebra class. (Damn that algebra...and I have YET to run into a logarithm in the 20 years since I graduated high school.)

It doesn't make any sense to me, not when you have a better coaster in Blue Streak across the midway. Big Dipper needs a lot of work, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Cedar Point already said the next big attraction is in 09', so I don't see them getting any mileage out of adding Big Dipper.

^^Sure you have. Remember that earthquake we talked about recently? The Richter scale is logarithmic.

Math rocks!

*** Edited 4/24/2008 6:19:46 PM UTC by Brian Noble***

^Yes, but I wasn't the person who had to figure out how much it shook.

Speaking of Kahiki and math, don't hula dancers gyrate to log-rhythms? ;)

I thought log-rythems were what a lumberjacks played?

Again, I have my doubts as to whether this could possibly happen. But stranger things have happened...so how about this for a way to make it fit...

Hey, is Demon Drop finally going away? Why not finally give the front of the park the renovation it needs? Put the Big Dipper right across the park's entrance. Maybe push the entry plaza out into the parking lot just a little and squeeze the lift hill and station between the main gate and the Blue Streak turnaround. I'm not sure how tall the Blue Streak is at the turnaround, maybe they could even interlock there if it is short enough, with the top of the lift at the top, the Blue Streak in the middle, and the brake run for the Clipper on the bottom. That would send the bulk of the ride off in the other direction, towards the lake, arcing back across that chunk of the parking lot behind Disaster Transport. At worst, to make it fit, the dogleg might have to be tightened up a little to keep the turnaround from ending up in the lake. Best of all, what could be a better way to bring people into the park than right under a classic wooden coaster? After all, that's how it once was at Geauga Lake... :)

As for the idea of having two similar coasters in the park...go look at the historical photos of Cedar Point that show the THREE out and back wood coasters side by side along what is now the main midway and parking lot!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I kinda agree with Dave here. Having classic wooden coasters at one park is not such a bad idea. I know CP has always been talking about building a new beachside boardwalk area to the park over by DT and WT but to my knowledge it has never really materialized. What better way to build a nostalgic area of the park than with a classic wooden coaster? They could try and add some classic types of flats and some old style lighting and shops. If done right, it could look much like the lost kennywood section at kennywood. I think Blue Streak and Big Dipper are different enough that the public will ride both....probably more then they ride Mean Streak