Big Dipper to Cedar Point?

Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:55 AM
A lot of people in this conversation are talking a lot of crap. ACE can't do this. Richard Munch doesn't have the credibility to do that. How many of you making those claims are ACE members, or know Richard Munch on a personal level? I'm willing to bet the number is very, very low.

I'm not going to sit here and verify or deny anything that has been said. I'm going to defend Mr. Munch's statements only because some people wrongly assumed it was a press release when it was not a press release. What I will say is that a lot has taken place that a good portion of you clearly know nothing about. Perhaps something will happen that proves I know what I'm talking about. Perhaps nothing will happen at all. But seriously, a lot of you would probably be wise to refrain from making statements when you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:00 AM

it was not a press release


If you don't want something to be thought of as a press release, don't put "For Release" on the coverpage.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:01 AM
Well! This has certainly turned into one of the more interesting threads around here lately.

Very few of us know enough about all the particulars in this discussion to truly have an informed opinion.

If (big if) Cedar Fair were to relocate Big Dipper to CP, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? It would depend on whether there is (was) viable interest from movers and shakers to keep it on site. If yes, then moving BD becomes less desirable. If no, then it would be very much a good thing.

And if CF were to float the idea of moving BD (but without intending to truly do so) solely as a means to shoot down some hypothetical renaissance of GL, that would be dirty pool indeed. However, there's not one real piece of data to suggest anything of the sort.

I gotta say, I don't understand Richard Munch's logic in sending this out. If it were intended as a press release, then it reflects terribly on his judgment in representing his organization. And if it's just intended as a sort of personal rant (which everyone's entitled to, of course), why would he send it out to half a dozen media representatives?

So if his judgment is that shaky, it suggests we shouldn't trust the story he's trying to tell. For all we know, it could just be a rumor he heard from some builder interested in developing the land.

But I'm more inclined to think there is actually something going on. It seems likely to me there is some kernel of truth underlying all this puffery that can't yet be determined. Hopefully, the truth will out, eventually, and maybe it will end up being something positive for us enthusiasts for a change. Who knows?

'Til then, it's very interesting.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:05 AM
I don't know who sent it to you PREMiERdrum, but that must have been added by someone. I assure you the contents of that email were not meant for release yesterday, nor where they ever meant for release. It was conversation between people with an interest in the subject matter, some personal and some business.

Whatever happened, it was not Richard Munch that distributed the so-called release.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:05 AM

Rob Ascough said:
A lot of people in this conversation are talking a lot of crap [...] How many of you making those claims are ACE members, or know Richard Munch on a personal level? I'm willing to bet the number is very, very low.

How many people who are making claims about Dick Kinzel know him on a personal level?

As to why it's not good enough, like I said before, Dick Kinzel could end world hunger tomorrow and someone on the tubes would find a way to hate him for it.

You can't stop Debbie Downer!

*** Edited 4/24/2008 3:07:08 PM UTC by Gemini***

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:07 AM

PREMiERdrum said:
This is a company that is looking to quickly lower its debt after purchasing the Paramount Parks chain in 2006, so it is not feeling very charitable, to say the lease.

Clearly, someone has some sort of personal vendetta against this Richard Munch person and has created this poorly written rant and put his name on it.

Me? I blame DAFE.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:08 AM

Rob Ascough said:
I don't know who sent it to you PREMiERdrum, but that must have been added by someone. I assure you the contents of that email were not meant for release yesterday, nor where they ever meant for release. It was conversation between people with an interest in the subject matter, some personal and some business.

Whatever happened, it was not Richard Munch that distributed the so-called release.


It was sent to me from his office. I apoligize for any confusion, but I was very upfront with the information and where it came from.

I don't appreciate my intelligence and credibility being questioned. I got information and I shared it. I further worked on a confirmation / denial from another party; hence my response from Bryan Edwards on page 1 (althought admittedly, he called me)

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:08 AM

OhioStater said:


How were the people of NE Ohio screwed by anybody? If the people of NE Ohio enjoyed Geagua Lake in the first place, more people would have gone, and this problem wouldn't exist in the first place.

Here in Columbus, there was a great little restaraunt called the Tropical Bistro that opened up a couple years ago. It was an off-shoot of a great place called Kahiki that was torn down. Talk about a restaraunt with some history! My wife and I frequented this place, but it was in a horrible location, and quite frankly, paled in comparison in terms of theme/feel/experience to the original.

And why did it close? No one went! Did we love it? Yes...us and about 55 other people.

I dont think this is hitting home with some people; GL was a ghost-town...yes, a small percentage of NE ohio frequented the park, and I feel for you guys, but in the times we went, we had ridden everything twice in 2.5 hours, and were quite bored.


Kahiki was awesome!!! Every time it rains and I hear birds I think of sitting in the "rain" room at Kahiki. That place was way cool! Sad when it closed. I didn't even know about Tropical Bristro and I live very close to Columbus!
Dont even get me started about Johnny Rockets closing at Easton!! :(

You hit the nail on the head about what exactly GL was. A ghost town definitely. WWK was definitely bringing in more people than GL was, but so was Sea World.

I wonder how many times the people who have done the most ranting, raving, screaming about GL closing actually went to the park since '04 and supported it?
My hubby, kids and I went several times over the years, not even counting the GOCC coaster events we went to also.
Not to beat a dead horse but CF is a business, a business' goal is to make $. As a stockholder I can't help but wonder if instead of investing so much time, energy and $$ on WWK if a new coaster wouldn't have helped liven up the park. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

The only thing I will personally miss about GL is Dominator. Period :(

Jo

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:09 AM
Who claims to know Dick Kinzel on a personal level? I'm not sure if you directed that at me, but if so, that's completely false. Don't mistake my opinions of his business decisions as a claim that I know the guy or anything about the way he ticks. Besides, comparing Munch to Kinzel isn't apples to apples. The decisions of one guy are for rather personal reasons, while the decisions of another affect the direction of a publicly-traded corporation.
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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:11 AM
You know what it sounds like?

It sounds like "somebody" has been working on an ill-advised, highly emotional but highly unlikely "plan" to try and build a mixed-use development around the Big Dipper, and has just figured out that Cedar Fair isn't going to allow that to happen in the first round of redevelopment of the site.

Geauga Lake is gone. Get over it. If the coasters can be relocated to other places, that's really the better outcome for the coasters anyway.

Oh, and a little fact-checking is in order here:

Agent Johnson, of all people, said:
"The Big Dipper is longer and 'bigger' than the Blue Streak. Both out and backs, yes, but quite different. The Dipper was built to claim the 'longest coaster' in the 1920's."

The Big Dipper is, according to RCDB, 122 running feet longer than the Blue Streak, but a full 13 feet shorter. The extra 122 feet of track can probably be accounted for in the "fold" in the Big Dipper that puts the lift hill on top of the final brake run. I'm not sure about the 'longest coaster' claim (although Agent Johnson is usually right... :) ) but there is a Miller & Baker advertisement reprinted in The Incredible Scream Machine that doesn't mention any superlatives for the Geauga Lake ride, but does show that it came in exactly on-budget.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:11 AM

PREMiERdrum said:


It was sent to me from his office. I apoligize for any confusion, but I was very upfront with the information and where it came from.


I didn't suggest you weren't being upfront. I just know for a fact that Mr. Munch did not want that information released, and that's why I said what I said.


I don't appreciate my intelligence and credibility being questioned. I got information and I shared it. I further worked on a confirmation / denial from another party; hence my response from Bryan Edwards on page 1 (althought admittedly, he called me)

I'm not questioning your credibility or intelligence, and I'm sorry if you thought that I was.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:13 AM

Rob Ascough said:
I'm not sure if you directed that at me

It was not directed at you. I merely jumped off your point that people are talking crap without personally knowing the person involved. Very few have personal knowledge about what what happened behind-the-scenes in regards to Geauga Lake, but that doesn't stop some from talking crap.

*** Edited 4/24/2008 3:15:10 PM UTC by Gemini***

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:15 AM
So the question becomes, Who faxed Munch's rant?

I swear, it's sounding more and more like an episode of Homicide. ;)

If Rob says he's certain Mr. Munch would not have sent that fax, I believe it. *** Edited 4/24/2008 3:18:08 PM UTC by Ensign Smith***

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:16 AM
Colonel Mustard, with the Fax Machine, in the Office?
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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:18 AM
I don't think anyone has said anything about Kinzel on a personal level. As far as I know, no one suggested the guy abducts little children and locks them up in his basement or drowns bunnies in his tub. People have questioned his business decisions, and rightfully so, since he is the CEO of a publicly-traded company.

So it's not okay to criticize Kinzel, but it's okay to call Munch a ranting jerk? You do know that the guy is an advocate for roller coasters and amusement parks, right? I can see someone on this site claiming that his idea might not make any sense, but since we're all here with a common love of roller coasters and amusement parks and the guy is trying to do his part to help them survive, why is he suddenly one of the bad guys? That makes absolutely no sense.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:18 AM
Oh, and since someone brought up the Kahiki...

Was Kahiki stuff auctioned? Or did it all get put back in storage again? That which didn't end up "on display" outside the offices of the frozen food company, anyway...I saw the stuff from the Kahiki facade a couple of weeks ago as I was driving up IR-270 in Gahanna.

The Kahiki is a kind of an odd story, as it didn't fail, in fact it was doing quite well. But Walgreens has more money than either sense or sense of history, and they literally offered the owner a boatload of money to buy the property and knock the restaurant down. I still wouldn't count the place out just yet. The trick is, there aren't very many properties in Columbus that are good locations with buildings that look like inverted long-boats... :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:20 AM
Ah, the Kahiki...

My parents never cared for it... so I always talked my friends parents into going there. My last time was Homecoming 2001. :(

Their frozen stuff is pretty good though, I just pretend that there's birds flying around on the other side of the glass while I'm eating it.

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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:21 AM

RideMan said:
You know what it sounds like?

It sounds like "somebody" has been working on an ill-advised, highly emotional but highly unlikely "plan" to try and build a mixed-use development around the Big Dipper, and has just figured out that Cedar Fair isn't going to allow that to happen in the first round of redevelopment of the site.


I contemplated saying exactly this from the start. Now I don't have to. :)
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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:28 AM
Well, that would explain why "saving" the ride by moving it would be viewed as Evil....
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Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:31 AM

Rob Ascough said:


I didn't suggest you weren't being upfront. I just know for a fact that Mr. Munch did not want that information released, and that's why I said what I said.

I'm not questioning your credibility or intelligence, and I'm sorry if you thought that I was.


Misunderstanding. It's all good!

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