2013 Cedar Fair Season pass question

Shades said:

How about 20%? 25%? Curious as to where your break point is?

That's a fair question. I don't really know. I do know that $108 vs $92 isn't that point.

And in 20 years when that shiny new Kroger is 22 years old and Walmart has replaced its aged store with a shiny new one are you still OK with paying the 15% premium to go to the out of date Kroger store?

I plan on being dead in 20 years.

Another fair question. There's no doubt a lot of my hestitation with our Wal-Mart come from the age/condition of the store. I don't mind the newer stores nearly as much. But I still insist that all things being equal (meaning no store brand or proprietary items) that Wal-Mart, Target and Meijer all land within a few dollars of each other over the course of a big shopping trip. Much narrower margins that the overpriced Kroger example.

I must be in the minority here.

Here at CoasterBuzz? Yes. In our society in general? Not at all.

I shop with a list, get my stuff, and get out. I am not looking for ambiance in a grocery store or a department store. I don't care what pattern the floor tile is or if the signs use an eye catching font.

1. Interestingly, I rarely shop with a list.

2. Not sure if it's necessarily ambince, per se, but I prefer to go to places that appeal to me for whatever reason. There's nothing wrong with liking nicer things. I prefer to drive a newer car, I prefer to live in a well maintained neighborhood, I prefer a nice cut of steak, I like a comfy t-shirt over a stuffy buttoned shirt.

I prefer most other stores to Wal-Mart.

3. Not sure it's as superficial as tile or fonts. It's more like the examples I gave in #2. It's not specifically anything more than it's a place I prefer to be.

Jeff said:

I was talking about people being cheap as possible in a crappy retail environment to save a few bucks. Regardless of where Apple products are made, they offer the exact opposite experience.

So, it's morally appropriate to ignore "human dignity and business ethics" when your goal is to acquire "high end retail" items, but not low end retail items?

To Shades' point, where's the break point? How much quality does it take to make unethical behavior acceptable?

I think where you draw the line depends on how cool the product is at issue. :)

Not sure there are many entites that bring on stronger views (on either side) than Walmart.

Vast majority of the times, I shop convenience. What else am I doing, where am I now, where am I going and how much time do I have. Target, Walmart, Giant Eagle, Heinens, few local drug stores and even a crappy K-Mart are all on the list (K-Mart because its a few minutes from my house so it wins on proximity for emergency type stuff). I do not like to shop for just about anything (my wife does most of that). Can't say I view any of those stores as any better than the other in terms of "experience" as I really would rather be just about anywhere else than shopping. I buy a lot of stuff online because its a lot quicker (and typically cheaper) and arrives at my door in a couple of days without me having gone anywhere.

djDaemon said:
So, it's morally appropriate to ignore "human dignity and business ethics" when your goal is to acquire "high end retail" items, but not low end retail items?

It's not as if there are American made cell phones and computers to choose from.

Very true, though that's not the point. My point was only that using build quality or brand positioning as moral justification seems... I dunno, convenient, I suppose?

For the record, I don't avoid Walmart because of their ethical behavior (though I used to). I avoid Walmart because in my experience, the shopping experience is pretty awful, mostly because of the customers.

I didn't take what Jeff was saying as the same moral issue in the way you guys are. When I read "Human dignity and business ethics are secondary to get the cheapest price", I assumed he was talking about the Human Dignity and business ethics on the purchaser's side, not the seller's side.

As in, going to Walmart to shop, one experiences a less than dignified experience, and the business' ethics behind that are to cheapen the product (shopping experience in this case).

I don't think anyone disagrees that Big Box Retail and Foxconn both treat their workers at varying degrees poorly.

Edited to clarify the first sentence

Yes, that.

Tekwardo said:As in, going to Walmart to shop, one experiences a less than dignified experience, and the business' ethics behind that are to cheapen the product (shopping experience in this case).

You must be looking for something different when you shop than I do. Less than dignified experience? What does that even mean? And I am not looking for a shopping experience. I am looking for products. Have what I want on the shelves and I am good. I have waited in line at all of the stores I mentioned. And I have had no lines at all of them as well. And how do a stores customers affect me?

I'm not the one that said it, mind you, I was just trying to explain what I got out of what Jeff said.

I shop at Walmart when it's convenient. But honestly, now that I live where Walmart isn't the only game in town, I prefer Target and Food Lion. Why? Because I rarely have to wait in line at those places, it's not nearly as loud as Walmart, and it's not usually as busy as Walmart.

As far as being dignified, it's the same thing I say all the time about flying. We used to get dressed up to fly, we enjoyed the overall experience, we got there and enjoyed eating at the airport, etc. Now it's all herding everyone thru security, grabbing a quick bite after waiting in a long line, everyone is dressed down.

Same thing for shopping. Even when I was young, people didn't 'dress up' necessarily to go shopping, but If you go to a Belk or Macy's, it's far more...dignified...than going into a Walmart.

And again, I shop at Walmart, used to work for them. I'm just stating some facts.

And how do a stores customers affect me?

Without trying to come off holier than thou, you either get this one or you don't. But, and this comes from working there, I do not think that Walmart at the first of the month or on a busy sunday afternoon or during the holidays is a pleasant experience, and I'd say it's 75% the people that I deal with that don't work there.

I find it ironic to see people talking about the dignity of Walmart customers on a discussion board about amusement parks.

The cool thing (sarcasm filter ON) about Wal*Mart is that you get to support them even if you *never* step foot in their stores. An average Wal*Mart store accounts for approximately $420K in government spending per year on food stamps, Medicaid, and the like...to the tune of $2.66B annually. 80% of their employees receive food stamps, and Wal*mart employees are the biggest single group of Medicaid receipients.

At least with amusement parks you don't like - if you don't go, you're typically not "supporting" them...

You're talking to the same people that champion pay to cut so we don't have to deal with park guests for very long either.

Does an amusement park not hire people that are in need of public assistance? Is their pay rate so much higher than Walmart's that your claim can't be applied to them--or any other business that hires low wage workers?

Does Walmart not compete in the same labor market as everyone else and therefore has to pay a similar wage?

Walmart is the largest employer in the US.

Amusement parks are mostly seasonal.

And just an FYI, and mind you I was a SNAP(Food Stamp)/Medicaid caseworker up until 2011, the people that I tended to have in my caseload that had seasonal jobs at amusement/entertainment type places that were only open during the warmer months typically were either ineligible for benefits while working, or had as signifigant reduction in benefits while working.

People that worked at Walmart and other Big Box Retail (because Target, K-Mart, and most other big box places are just as bad to their employees) tended to get a reduction or termination of their benefits during the Xmas season for a month or so.

^^ I don't think the amusement parks force their employees to work at midnight on Thanksgiving and then threaten to sue said employees if they strike.

However, I think the reason that many of the questionable business ethics practices we hear about are because these companies are so huge and so in the public eye. I'm sure there are no companies that practice completely admirable business ethics. We'll hear crap about Target and Wegmans and other chains in the future, I guarantee it. We're only AWARE of WalMart and Apple and a few others at this point.

I get what people are saying about the shopping experience end of it though. At WalMart, though I usually go there late at night if I can help it, there is one lane open (two at the most), it seems as if every single person is cashing their paycheck or assistance check, and a quick trip for five items turns into an ordeal.

As has been said before, I don't really care about the savings all that much. I would rather my shopping experience be smooth and painless.

Trust me, any Department store is no better than Walmart. Target, Kmart, JC Penny, Sears, Sams, etc.

There are a few that stand out as good to work for, I think I've heard good things about Cosco? But most of them pay low wages, offer terrible benefits, work long hours, or barely any at all, and expect you to drop your life to work when they need you.

I worked at Kmart and Walmart and it was exactly the same. I have friends that have worked at Target, Sears, and Pennys and they're the same.

The only retail places I've worked that paid a decent wage and had decent benefits were GAP and Sheetz. I worked at the GAP temporarily and the pay was good for a seasonal person. Sheetz had good pay, decent benefits, and usable healthcare.

bunky666 said:

I don't think the amusement parks force their employees to work at midnight on Thanksgiving and then threaten to sue said employees if they strike.

Welcome to America, where we've had national unemployment flirting with double digits for several years, and people are threatening to strike because their hours aren't convenient.

Boo-friggin-hoo.

djDaemon said:

Welcome to America, where we've had national unemployment flirting with double digits for several years, and people are threatening to strike because their hours aren't convenient.

Boo-friggin-hoo.

I wish I could kiss you.

It's not so much about my comfort or convenience if I need to get to class, pick up my kids, or I am scheduled to work somewhere else because Target doesn't pay me a living wage.

Walmart isn't alone in having employees receiving food stamps or being on Medicaid. We get to support alot of businesses even if we never set foot in them.

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/corporate-subsidy-watch/hidden-taxpayer-costs

What is a "living wage?"