2013 Cedar Fair Season pass question

bunky666 said:

...why is it necessary to open at midnight for Black Friday?

Because...

...the stores that opened on Thanksgiving for Black Friday made huge profits...

:-)

...it bothered me that all the stores did it and took people away from their families on one of the last hugely celebrated holidays left.

You've got your villain wrong. The stores did no such thing. The customers willing to shop on said holiday are the ones "taking people away from their families". Those stores just figured it might be a good idea (seeing as how they're public companies) to scoop up some of that cash lying on the ground.

ApolloAndy said:

Yes, but we've also had less an less earning power for the lower class decade after decade after decade coupled with insane increase in earning power for the tippy-top. What's the point of minimum wage if it doesn't provide a minimum living?

While I agree that's a massive problem with huge repercussions for our economy, it's also a wholly different argument, as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of income disparity, it's sort of hard to take the "minimum wage should be higher" argument from the "it's inconvenient for me to work on a holiday" people.

I realize it's not necessarily accurate to assume the two groups overlap, but it often seems as though they do.

Slightly back on topic. Cedar Point responded to someone on Twitter saying,

@cedarpoint
Platinum Pass Perk information will be available soon - sorry for the delay!

Forced? No. Kind of stuck? Sure.

Fine line between having to do something and not really having a second viable option.

The study clearly stated that prices fall at other locations as well, so they do have a choice. And it's been pointed out by many (including you!) that other locations sometimes have better prices. So I'm not sure how you can say on the one hand other places have just as good a price, while also saying these folks are "stuck" at Walmart?

2) Far more people shop there than just the "poor folks who work for them."

So what? Your post was about the benefits of Wal-Mart. How they lower pricing and enable the poor to stretch their dollars. We're talking about the poor folks. At least you were.

So what?? We're talking about benefits of the store overall, not just for the people who work there. Seems we need to include all the benefits--my quote never mentioned the benefits were only for poor people, just that the poor saw the biggest "effective increase" in their purchasing power. The study says "The average American family saves $2,300 a year by shopping at Wal-Mart." You want to only focus on the poor? Fine. Do all the poor work at Walmart? No. Do they not benefit from lower prices?

If you're naive enough to believe what your getting is good value, then more power to you.

So there are no good values to be found at Walmart, and everyone who shops there is naive? Pretty broad brush there!

these types of stores create an economic "race to the bottom," a vicious cycle of lower costs and lower wages that ends....well, pretty much here where we are.

But you don't consider that "evil?" :-)

But to repeat what others have said, the stores didn't create anything--customers have spoken with their wallets that this model has value to them. The "blame" clealy rests on the vast majority of the population that shops there!

I blame self serve gas stations. People wanted to save some money in the face of rising gas prices and it was all down hill from there.

Lankster said:

But you don't consider that "evil?" :-)

As an economist, I am compelled to look at business and finance through an *amoral* lens. What is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant in the face of what IS.

So you aren't arguing that it's bad?

It's detrimental to an economy struggling to recover from a recession...words like "good" and "bad" are for philosophers and clergy.

So it isn't "bad," it's "detrimental." LOL!

Do you really think your take on this situation is objective in any way? You said we "all support Walmart" whether we shop there or not, ignoring the fact that this claim can be made to any low-wage employer, choosing to single out Walmart over the rest of them. You then presented a claim that "Walmart costs $xx" due to the fact some of their employees get govt benefits--again ignoring that this is not unique to Walmart, and also totally ignoring the benefit side of the equation!

You then use the claim "vicious cycle" (instead of virtuous cycle, or just your "I'm not biased to say something is good or bad favorite term" cycle) to describe low wages and low prices, again focusing on the "detrimental, not bad mind you" low wages and ignoring the beneficial low prices.

It's a damn good thing you told us you aren't taking a side, how would we know otherwise?

Timber-Rider, see what you started???

^^Trader Joe/Aldi are owned by the same (German) company. They have similar philosophies---primarily a smaller product line. For example, there aren't four brands of peanut butter, each in three different sizes. There is one. TJ's positions itself a little more upscale/foodie, whereas Aldi is more staples/basics. Both also try to position hard on price---and tend to squeeze their suppliers in much the same way as some of the bigger players. I've not shopped in an Aldi yet, but TJ's also has primarily a house brand, the products for which are often made by recognizable names but without the recognizable brand.

Lankster said:

So I'm not sure how you can say on the one hand other places have just as good a price, while also saying these folks are "stuck" at Walmart?

Because it was the argument that you presented - Wal-Mart helps people stretch their budget by X amount. That's a separate discussion from my beliefs.

I did argue that Wal-Mart doesn't help people stretch those dollars any more than other big box stores. Don't take that and try to turn it around on me. Two different discussions.

And if you really want to connect the dots that way - then it shows Wal-Mart doesn't really help people...at least no more than anyone else. Those low prices are available at any of the big box stores.

The study clearly stated that prices fall at other locations as well, so they do have a choice.

Yep. By forcing manufacturers to lower quality and cut corners to meet Wal-Mart's pricing demands. (If Your Stuff Is Falling Apart, Thank Wal-Mart) 

They've forced the bar to be lowered across the board. Hooray for crap!

So there are no good values to be found at Walmart, and everyone who shops there is naive? Pretty broad brush there!

Again, not what I said at all.

kpjb said:

This is what puzzles me about WalMart. You see the same people in every store, no matter what city. Conversely, you don't see these people in any other store. I have no idea where the WalMart shoppers around me come from, because I NEVER see these people anywhere else.

Exactly. I wasn't trying to be facetious either. It's a real measurable phenomenon in my neck of the woods. I don't know where they come from (I don't see them anywhere else) and I don't know who they are (I've never run into an acquaintance there). They're the real-world equivalent of NPCs. I bet if you talk to enough of them, you'll start hearing the same phrases over and over again.

"I used to be a Target shopper, then I took an arrow to the knee."

Which would explain the electric scooters and disability checks too, I suppose.

Is it just me or is there just too much in the way of people seemingly taking offense to other people being negative about Walmart a little to personally?

NO idea why you would say that, Clint... ;)

Tekwardo said:

Is it just me or is there just too much in the way of people seemingly taking offense to other people being negative about Walmart a little to personally?

Like I said yesterday, there are not many businesses (or really things/people in general) that bring out stronger views (on both sides).

I get that, but it almost seems that people that like Walmart are personally upset that there are people that don't particularly like to go there and are making excuses as to why they shouldn't be negative.

Have you ever seen anyone here say they like ride x, another person say that ride sucks and the first person then try to defend it? To a degree, I think that is just human nature even though some people will be more likely to do that than others and for some things but not everything.

I just think its funny to see people who dislike/hate Walmart for reasons that apply to other businesses as well (particularly when its a business that they patronize to avoid Walmart). And the strength of the views with respect to Walmart are interesting to me as well. In the end, I really do not care where people shop or what people may think about where I shop (or other choices I make in life).

I was just trying to balance the negativity with some positivity about the company. Basically (and I hate using that word, but it fits here), they aren't any worse than Target of K-Mart or most other retail stores as far as wages go. They help the community in many ways, unlike a lot of other retail stores. I like shopping there because of the low prices and great selection. I don't buy certain things there though, like name brand clothes and shoes.

I live about 35 minutes from the nearest Walmart. The rural grocery stores near my house are extremely expensive and have a terrible selection. The lines at these stores are just as long as Walmart's lines. I find that to be a worse shopping experience than Walmart.

Edited to chance an upper case to a lower case.

DjDaemon, you are absolutely right that the true villains in the holiday thing are the people. I thought about that soon after I posted, and you hit the nail on the head. While the stores collectively could all say, "no, we're going to honor the holiday and not give in to corporate greed", who is actually going to do that if the demand is there? Many people have to work Black Friday, but not nearly as many have to work Thanksgiving, so many more of them are going to be able to get great deals on presents for their families, the merchandise won't be picked over, and they probably run about the same risk of a car accident on Thanksgiving shopping as they do Black Friday (Thanksgiving drunks versus Black Friday crazies probably balances out somewhat).

I don't think that Wal-Mart is by any means the only "evil" company out there. In fact, I KNOW they aren't the only evil company out there. I also think a lot of their negativity comes from the fact that they ARE so huge that they're so much in the public eye and things get noticed more that way. I DO think they're hypocritical (they say they are a family store and refuse to sell certain movies, they edit out curse words from CDs, but yet they still sell guns and cigarettes. Target at least says they're a family store and does not sell either guns or cigarettes).

I'm sure that there are a million arguments as to why other stores are even worse than Wal-Mart, and many people have raised salient points regarding Wal-mart and other big box stores. I think it honestly comes down to this, or at least for me:

I hate Wal-Mart. I hate the shopping experience, I hate the low quality of many of their items, I am scared of half the people that shop there, and I will go nearly anywhere else and spend more money just to avoid Wal-Mart. I have been to some good ones, and if every store was as nice as the few I have seen, it would be a different story perhaps. However, until that happens, Target is closer to me, most of the merchandise is nicer, employees are more friendly (and less scary looking), and still has the lowest prices on certain items I need (yes, cheaper than the big W). Maybe I'm just a snob for hating on WM specifically as well. If Wal-Mart really helps people stretch their dollar further, maybe it is people like me that need to re-evaluate.

Nope. Can't do it. WM just rubs me the wrong way, and apparently I am not alone in this.

Because it was the argument that you presented - Wal-Mart helps people stretch their budget by X amount.

Nope, no where did I make the claim they were "stuck" shopping at Walmart--that's all yours.

And if you really want to connect the dots that way - then it shows Wal-Mart doesn't really help people...at least no more than anyone else. Those low prices are available at any of the big box stores.

Did you look at all at the study I quoted? Again, the study claims Walmart leads to reduced prices everywhere. Then apparently you did see the claim, arguing it "forces everyone to sell crap."

I can't find a coherent argument from you. You argue folks are "stuck" at Walmart (blaming me for saying that!), then agree they have other choices, but because of Walmart all everyone sells is crap anyway. Where do you shop?

But I can't believe you claim I distorted this:

If you work or shop there, you're getting what you deserve. If you're naive enough to believe what your getting is good value, then more power to you.

Those are your words, sorry for taking them literally!

To address the assumptions others are making, nope, I'm not a regular Walmart shopper. (My biggest complaint: it seems there is always a long checkout line, but for the most part I find better value elsewhere.)

I just don't understand the utter, irrational hatred for everything Walmart.

And it even comes from normally rational people!