Why Fastpass at Disney can be horrible
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
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Have you ever considered that maybe it's not the park that's the problem, but YOU?
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 2/15/2002. ***
With that comfort in mind, I can go do other things at my leisurly pace and not worry about missing one of my favorite rides throughout before the day is over.
I agree, Fastpass was designed as a direct benefit to Disney and an indirect perceived benefit to the guest. Personally, I like it. I have missed the Fastpass before for Test Track (they were gone for the day) yet stood in the standby line. I don't know what the percentage is of Fastpass riders to non during a given hour but I think I waited less than one hour when I stood in the standby line.
rollergator said:
and I think it's readily apparent that they ALL serve to reduce capacity...
What!? How could it possibly reduce capacity? They're not letting less people on. I'm not following that logic at all. If a ride does 1600 pph, how does FastPass reduce that? The 1600 pph are just coming from two seperate lines now.-----------------
www.coasterimage.com
Now I have to say here that I feel for the ride-ops, their job is tough enough. Having them handle all these "other duties" means it's necessarily harder for them to perform the original function of their job - to simply feed people from the queue to the ride, and from the ride to the exit...the "multiple-queues" complicate that procedure a lot, and then you add in the angry people who are forced to wait longer, and who do you think they take their frustration out on...the ride-op! That's who REALLY pays the price for FastPass/FastLane...IMO...
Sorry if this came off as harsh...I just always feel for the people who have to deal with angry customers...what a drag! Obviously, MAX capacity is unaffected, but OPERATING capacity is bound to suffer... Springer's final thought, part II...how to get people OFF the ride when the exit ramp is completely blocked by FastPass/FastLane users...I have no problem with handicapped access (they NEED the exit ramp)...but ALL those people coming up the exit makes it harder to "re-load" the train if the exiting folks can't leave...
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Florida needs an Intamin and/or CCI soon...PLEASE!
Son of Drop Zone - PKI CoasterCamp I Champions!!!
*** This post was edited by rollergator on 2/15/2002. ***
*** This post was edited by rollergator on 2/15/2002. ***
C'mon, nobody is holding a gun to these people's heads making them work at Disney. If they go home crying themselves to sleep because Fast Pass makes their job so awful, they could just quit.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
ravenguy98 said:
"If they go home crying themselves to sleep because Fast Pass makes their job so awful, they could just quit."
...and yet, before the season is over, someone will complain about some of SFGAdv's flat rides being closed due to "lack of staffing"....
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Besides, if we were really shutting down people we disagreed with, would Jeremy (2Hostyl) still be around? :) I think not. - Jeff 1/24/02
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Have you ever considered that maybe it's not the park that's the problem, but YOU?
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Have you ever considered that maybe it's not the park that's the problem, but YOU?
DWeaver said:
Um, Dave? I cannot remember a day when a Disney park I've been to wasn't busy. Nor can I remember a time where I didn't want to stay the whole day. And certainly a tourist isn't going to be looking to leave the park early.
From Thanksgiving to Christmas and from New Years Eve to Spring Break, all parks in the Orlando area are dead. I'm sure there are other "off-times," but those two are the most well-known.
I went with my family on a Disney Vacation years ago (1997, I believe). We were able to spend full days at both EPCOT and Magic Kingdom, I think, but we were done with MGM by 2pm. I can't imagine anyone *ever* spending a full day at that park (one of the reasons RnRC and TZToT always have huge lines). Remember that many of the people at the Disney parks are tourists with young children, and you cannot expect young children to stay awake (and behaving) from 9am-9pm. Ask any parent and they'll agree. That's why many of the Disney parks clear out at around 2pm and then pick back up around 4pm.
So yes, there are periods where the Disney parks aren't busy *at all.* And I would think that most people do not spend their entire day at the park.
My visit in 1997 was before FP, but I re-visited MGM in 2000 and found out what a horrible system it is. Never again.
-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 on 2/15/2002. ***
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Florida needs an Intamin and/or CCI soon...PLEASE!
Son of Drop Zone - PKI CoasterCamp I Champions!!!
Coasterdude318, That's why I specified that I have not been to an un-packed Disney park, ever. Nor have I been to one where the lines magically disappear at 8pm, if anything they get longer, much longer. And as I also said, this system isn't being forced on anyone, if you need to leave early, your still free to use the regular line.
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Have you ever considered that maybe it's not the park that's the problem, but YOU?
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 2/15/2002. ***
*** This post was edited by DWeaver on 2/15/2002. ***
Roughly the first dozen people in this model got a shorter wait with the VQ than by waiting in line. What happened is that the ride's capacity was cut by 10% for the 'normal' queue, from 1,200 PPH to 1,080 PPH. That meant that the queue build rate went from 1,300 PPH (that is, each hour the queue would exceed the capacity by 1,300 PPH) to 1,420 PPH. At the same time, the virtual queue opens up. People can join the virtual queue at the rate of 900 PPH, but can only leave that queue at a rate of 120 PPH...a build rate of 780 PPH.
You see what has happened here? The ride capacity has remained constant (1,200 PPH) but the number of people entering the queue for the ride has increased by the capacity of the VQ machine. People are now lining up for the ride at the rate of 3,400 PPH. And neither option can move people as rapidly as the old single-line option. EVERYBODY has a longer wait to get onto the ride, with the VQ people having a significantly longer wait, and the normal queue people having a slightly longer wait.
Personally, I think queue management is something the parks need to be considering with their rides, but virtual queues are not the way to go about doing it. Part of the problem is a structural problem that can be blamed on Randall Duell...so many parks are laid out in a giant circle, that people tend to pick one of two possible paths around the circle, and from the opening bell until closing time, there are two large mobs circulating through the park, moving together from ride to ride, complaining about the long waits, not realizing that the ride they waited an hour for earlier in the day is now a walk-on, and that the ride they're waiting an hour for now was a walk-on earlier in the day. Most parks have neither the communications infrastructure nor the layout to make it truly easy to manage the queues. One park that has both is Kings Island, as they have an interconnected layout that makes the distances between rides tolerable, and a video system throughout the park. I wonder if they have ever considered using their video system for queue management. It ought to work...!
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Before Fast Pass.... During the summer, on 60000-70000 guests day, lines for Space Mountain, at 5 trains operation, with minimal breakdown could go as far as 2-3 hours. You'll complain about "bad" capacity, but we are talking about 5 trains operation on 2:18 seconds ride with dual loading docks, so for short, actual capacity (not PPH, the real number) is 2350. Which means there can be as many as 5000 persons in the line at once for Space Mountain.
Come summer 2000, FP is integrated to the newly reopened Indiana Jones rollercoaster (its 6 months rehab saw an upgrade to the ride system, track replacement and new rolling stock with 50% more seats per train.), Peter Pan and Space Mountain. For Peter Pan, its a failure, as its capacity is quite poor (for a Disney ride) at 900 guests per hour. So, by 11:30 in the morning, all the FP for Peter Pan were given.... locking guests out of other FP for all day in many cases. At Space Mountain and Indiana Jones, FP worked wonders, shrinking "stand-by" lines to under an hour, even on real busy days. In december 2000, Big Thunder Mountain was given a really themed FP system. Also, an interesting feature was integrated into the FP server. After 2 hours, you can get another FP, even if the one you got is valid 6 hours after.
In july 2001, FP at Star Tours opened (with me helping) and while we had troubles at first (its included major modifications that caused it to be delayed), its now runs like a charm, shrinking stand-by lines again.
What we see here, is that FP had an impact, has studies shows that guests go on more rides when using FP then before, without FP. If FP failed, its was due to awful ride capacity, that plagues the ride with or without FP.
A well thought out post there. Very nice. I'm still not quite following the numbers to perfection, but I don't want to turn this into a math lesson.
As stated before, we can figure it out on paper all day, but it all comes down to how it works in practice. I've been to Disney a handful of times before FastPass began and a handful of times after. The waits in "regular" lines didn't change after FastPass went into effect. If "ride X" normally had a one hour wait before they started the system, it still did after FastPass went into effect from what I saw. It it were really slowing capacity and creating longer waits, we'd see it happening. Everyone's experiences vary, but I doubt anyone who's a regular (or semi-regular) at Disney (or any park with a system like this that's been in effect for a while) has actually seen longer waits. Same at IOA, before they started their virtual queue system I'd wait on average a half hour for Hulk. Granted that fluctuates during the day, but the average everytime I've been to IOA is about a half hour. After they began issuing their own version of FastPass (their name is totally escaping me now for some reason) my waits for Hulk were the same - about 30 minutes give or take a bit depending on variables such as time of day and random tendencies of guests. Plus if I got a pass for Hulk I could spend that 30 minutes taking my daughter over to Suess Island. Or on the flipside I could get a pass for Spiderman and after my same 30 minute wait, enjoy a near walk-on to Spidey.
If these systems didn't work, lines in the pak would be up in general, but I've seen nothing of the sort. They seem unchanged to me.
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www.coasterimage.com
In fact, for capacity, I look at the way our parks often maximize train capacity by lining up guests in rows ahead of time to speed up loading (an extra person usually, and they can check heights, too). Our single riders lines fill the rides all the way up (sometimes also an additional employee). But to organize these "cattle" (and I include myself here), it takes alot of staff...most people usually just stay in their own groups regardless of seating, and it shortchanges total capacity. Think how many times you've heard "move ALL the way down...All the way down"...the employees probably have that stuff running in their DREAMS!
Adding all these extra lines of people, many coming up the ride exit, blocking the last train from exiting the platform, preventing the next train from loading, etc., etc. It's my opinion (and maybe only mine) that the old way was the best way...Where's that thread again about "you know you're old when...."...LMAO.
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Florida needs an Intamin and/or CCI soon...PLEASE!
Son of Drop Zone - PKI CoasterCamp I Champions!!!
*** This post was edited by rollergator on 2/16/2002. ***
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