What's going wrong at Cedar Point?

Sorry, LK, but I don't buy your side of the story.

You don't have to. Maybe I knew Bill at a more difficult time in his life than you do. It always surprises me to hear people say how nice he is. Glad to hear he has changed for the better.

I was in charge of Camp Snoopy at the time. It was early in the season. The weather was beautiful, and the guest were extra happy that day. I was relieving people from each ride to take their breaks.

The Lollie Swing had nearly full cycles for most of the day. During the cycle that the incident occurred, I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was just singing and smiling. All the guests were singing along, too, as they swung around and around. We were all having a great time. I was still doing my job as perfect as I always did. I wasn't dancing around, or bobbing my head; I was just singing.

The great mood ended abruptly when Mr. Spehn ran up to me, and screamed at me like no one else ever had in my life, asking me, "Who told you that you were allowed to sing?" That was the first time I had ever met the guy. I didn't even know his name. I apologized and he made his way to the next person to yell at. All of the kids and adults heard and saw him yelling at me, and they all stopped singing too. Some people even came up to me after the ride cycle and quickly commented about the situation.

I had to ask around to find out who the guy was that yelled at me.

Then I started seeing him more frequently. He never said much to me, but on many occasions I observed him interacting with the guests, and it was no pretty. I even went behind him when possible to apologize for his unpleasant mood.

He would scream in that very same tone of voice at the guest who were smoking or didn't have their shirts on, or for whatever rules they were breaking. I mean demand and order the guests around. His "Thank you" was not sincere either; it was sarcastic.

When I saw someone breaking a rule, I would go up to them, say hello, smile, and halfway through our short conversation, I would inform them of the rule and ask them to comply. I was floored each time I saw a Supervisor, or whatever he was, not doing it the same way as I was trained.

...Believe it, or not.

...And maybe that's why he is so superfantastic at whatever it is he does. Maybe he's a straight forward approach kind of guy, who doesn't have to dance around to get his point across.

wahoo skipper said:
(And, I'm growing a little tired of the comparison to going to a concert or professional sporting event.) I don't know anyone who is at those things for more than a few hours so in all liklihood you can get by with one meal (if that) and limited other expenses once you have paid for your ticket.

It's still valid. No one is making you buy anything in either case. You're more likely to buy something assuming you spend an entire day at an amusement park, but it doesn't mean you have to.

Plus, I've always felt it's balanced by the ticket cost. And especially so if you consider the potential length of the attraction or event.

The average cost of an NFL game (for four) is now $412.64 - that includes drinks for 4 and a couple of souvenirs. That buys you three or four hours of entertainment. (on the high end that number is over $750 to see the Cowboys at home)

The last movie my family saw (and I'm sure prices vary) would have cost $50 for 4 tickets and another $27 for four drinks and one popcorn. $77 bought us 90 minutes of entertainment.

We just went to this past Monday Night RAW. Tickets for four were $177 and we didn't buy the most expensive seats and skirted convience fees by getting them directly from a connection at the Nutter Center. One souvenir for my son was $25 and four drinks came in over $20. $225 bought three hours of entertainment.

Looking ahead the next big ticket to come to town is Rascal Flatts - at $65 a seat. After fees and such four tickets cost $315. Add four beers and a couple of souvenirs and you're easily over $400.

If you pay listed gate price for CP tickets for four are $184. If I buy three meals at $12.50 per person during my day that's another $150. If I buy everyone an additional $4 drink sometime during the day that's another $16. Let's say $25 on souvenirs and $25 on games to round out the day. $400 buys me up to 12 hours of entertainment...and that's if I don't take advantage of discounts and deals like cups with cheap refills.

I just don't see the cost of the amusement parks being out of line in the big scheme of things. In fact, I still think it's a phenominal bargain for what you gets - a full day of rides, shows, entertainment, etc.

That's just the price of entertainment.

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As far as the trend of lowering attendance. Could it just be a cyclical thing...or at the very least an evening out of the numbers. I still maintain these parks have pushed attendance as far as possible. Cedar Point will never do 4 million people in a season...ever. The 3.6 million or whatever they peaked at was most likely just that - a peak. I have no idea what a standard valley number would be, but assuming everything else remained constant I'd expect the attendance numbers to naturally fluctuate between that peak and valley. Things like a weak economy would obviously affect the levl of fluctuation.

Perhaps there's nothing but the normal ebb and flow happening?

Yeah, exactly. :)

That's what I was trying to get at with this:

Maybe what I should be asking everyone is what they determine the problem to be rather than what the causes are. What exactly is the indication that there's a problem? Attendance is down. But how much and for how long and is it enough to qualify as a downward trend rather than a dip? I really don't know.

This potential sale isn't necessarily anindication of a Cedar Point problem. Attendance was up across the chainand that was the intention for diversifying with additional parks. Theywanted other parks to pick up where some may be slipping. That'shappening.

Gonch...you make good points but how many people are filling the seats at Indians games these days? Are the Tigers filling their stadium?

No one is "making" you buy the food at the Point but what are the real options? Most people are not going to hoof it back to their cars in order to drive off the peninsula to go get a meal. So, you are a captive audience, so to speak.

I'm not going to discount Gonch's arguments. He makes some valid points...points I suspect Kinzel shares with the Board.

As for Bill Spehn...I do think he has improved his leadership skills over the years. When I was there he was the Soak City manager and I wasn't all that sold on him. Then again, I like to think I'm a better leader now than I was 15 years ago.

As for whether or not there is a problem...well...the company is being sold. And, lots of people are going to take a bath as a result. I'd say that is a problem.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the problem is at Cedar Point or even with the park operations within the chain, specifically. Isn't it possible the problem (for the chain, not CP directly) is the market and debt load coupled with a troubled economy?

Attendance is down at Tiger and Indians games because the teams are not very good (some would go as far to say they both suck). You can dress up the pig all you want with new fancy stadiums, sushi and other non-standard ball game fare (even give the food away like the Indians do for club seats), have giveaway days, kids fun days, etc. and folks won't show up if the team on the field is bad. Look next door in downtown Cleveland and you will find the Cavs pretty much filling the place every night (with higher overall prices). The difference is the Cavs are winning but the Indians are not.

And if Cedar Point abandons thrill rides and starts adding boring crappy theme rides like Disney, I will stop going to Cedar Point. No offense, but I don't want to spend the day riding rides that a 3 year old can ride. I rode Toy Story Mania and Buzz Lightyear and they were not that good. And I looked forward to riding Everest because so many people told me how good it was but it makes Mean Streak seem like an exciting coaster (and even if you don't have issues with the roughness of MS, the ride is just flat out slow and boring).

But are you the target market Cedar Point wants? And, if they do want you (which I assume they do) are you the ONLY market they want?

You are absolutely right though. The product (and experience) largely draws the attendance at professional sporting events.

By the way...how long was the line for Buzz Lightyear and Toy Story Mania? When I was at the Studios last month we got a Fastpass for TSM at around 11am that had us returning at 6:30pm. The standby line was an hour and a half. We went to the Magic Kingdom later that night and at about 9pm the line for Buzz was an hour. This was actually on a "slow" weekend.

Carrie, I think the market and the debt load served to expose the precarious nature of Kinzel's decisions. Buying Paramount in and of itself did not doom Cedar Fair. Sweeping out a great deal of experience at those parks and then trying to jam the Cedar Point way down their throats was the larger mistake...and one Kinzel basically admitted too with regards to King's Island for example.

5-10 years ago you would be hard pressed to find people complaining about the Point on GTTP, Pointbuzz or Coasterbuzz. Now the criticism rains down as much on Cedar Fair as it does on Six Flags. Heck, a guy so enthralled with the Point at one time that he created a fan website for it is one of the biggest proponents for a change in leadership.

Frankly, I don't think you need to look much further than the departure of a number of excellent full time employees to really know there is a problem. Sure, we are on the outside looking in and what we think is largely conjecture. But, they are (were) on the inside and they aren't leaving long, storied careers at the park for no reason. We all know how hard it is to get into the amusement park business if you want to make a profession of it. So, why are they getting out? Do you think it is just coincidence?

That's just the price of entertainment.

To clarify, you mean "big ticket" entertainment (or upper-level). There are plenty of much cheaper things to do with the family. A family trip to the local live steam club for a free train ride is one. Mini golf. BBQ, etc. But I see your point, parks are in line economically-wise with sports and shows...and you do get more for your buck.

No, I agree by all accounts it sounds like a terrible place to work. What I'm not convinced about is that that is causing a financial problem for the park. Are the full time employees who stay getting the job done well or not?

Things could definitely be better. But are they so bad that the park's been suffering financially?

I assume they want people who have gone to the park every year of their life for the past 40+ years and now bring wife and kids but maybe not. And certainly I am not the only market that they want to attract. But to me, I see a park filled with rides that folks of all ages can ride. My kids have been going there since they were 1 or 2 years old and never had any problem filling a day with things to do. Though to me at its core, the park is still an amusement park rather than a theme park (and I understand those terms can get blended somewhat).

I do not remember how long the lines were for TSM or BLY. We went in June and were pleasantly surprised by the lack of lines. Other than Peter Pan (for which we waited over an hour which was a disaster in and of itself), we never waited more than 30 minutes for anything and most waits were less than 15 minutes. We used fast pass as much as we could as early in the day as we could. I believe though that the fast passes for TSM were gone by early afternoon (maybe it was late morning, I just don't remember).

Carrie M. said:
Yes, but that doesn't mean the problem is at Cedar Point or even with the park operations within the chain, specifically. Isn't it possible the problem (for the chain, not CP directly) is the market and debt load coupled with a troubled economy?

Ah, but that's only half of the equation. Everyone is affected by the poor economy, but that doesn't mean there aren't appropriate actions to respond to that situation. I think it's pretty simple: If people have less discretionary income, do you charge them more, reduce quality, cause staffing issues that degrade from the experience, etc.? Only if your only management skill is cutting to the bottom line.

Gee, am I the only one here not camping out on this thread? :)

The discussion keeps coming around to food, and I fully agree that I don't think it's likely that the price of a hamburger is going to keep someone from returning for another visit. But we keep coming back to that point because that is a concrete item that we can look at and say, "The product sucks, the service sucks, the value isn't there." At the same time, am I the first person in 7 pages to note that this season there was a cart where you could get a bratwurst sandwich, a bag of chips and a drink for $6, which is a heck of a good deal *anywhere*, let alone on the Million Dollar Midway. I really think this is back to Jeff's thousand cuts issue (I haven't listened to the podcast yet...) where there are lots of areas where there is trouble, but with all the emphasis on per-cap spending and customer value, this is an area that sticks out as blindingly obvious, and that generates a lot of complaints.

But maybe there are other, more nebulous issues where the park just doesn't give that good vibe anymore. Maybe it's because the park never seems to be open after dark anymore, or that the wait for the train has become unbearable because it takes an extra-special occasion to get out a second locomotive. Maybe it's disappointing because Gemini doesn't *always* race anymore (or ever run all six trains), or because Bucky gave up on bringing down that tree. Perhaps it's because the lights on Power Tower haven't worked right in years, and nobody seems to care because the park is hardly open after dark anyway. Maybe the park just has one too many orange seat belts in it, or one tree too few on the main midway*. Maybe you just visited and found out that you can't actually fit into the seat of anything built in the last ten years. There are lots of little aggravations and irritations involved with visiting the park, and at the end of an experience, you have a feeling about whether you want to come back or not. How much you paid for your lunch may not be most important issue, but it is an issue, and it is an issue that becomes a focal point for a whole lot of other stuff.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

*That one's for Jeff... :)

--DCAjr

Bucky gave up on bringing down that tree? :(

Yep...Bucky got ran off by the new water ride.

Okay, now I'm upset. Paddlewheel Excursions keeps getting gutted out each year. Progress is necessary, and the park needs to move forward, but slowly destroying a classic attraction isn't the way to do it.

Now, now...before you get out the torches and pitchforks...

In fairness, Bucky quit gnawing away on the tree about the time the land clearing appeared on the island. Later in the season, Delbert Whatshispus quit trying to jump the boat with his flying machine, but he didn't disappear. Let's leave open the possibility that both the good Professor and the beaver will be back at it once the dressing is done for Shoot the Rapids, until such time as we know the're really gone.

Heck, Bucky is actually a left-over from the Western Cruise; it would be a sin to get rid of him now! "Don't watch that tree, folks, it won't go back up until we get around the next bend!"

Given the nature of Shoot the Rapids, I think that one of two things will happen to Paddlewheel. Either the ride will be totally gutted, or it will be effectively overhauled and somewhat restored. While I'm half expecting the former, personally I'm hoping for the latter, and honestly won't be surprised if it does happen. I still have hope for Cedar Point. :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

At least the price of fur is still real good.

I guess the question is, of the issues being discussed, which are the causes and which are the result?

In the case of the Indians and Tigers, you can say nobody goes to the games because the teams suck. But couldn't you also say because nobody goes to the games, the teams have less revenue to get or retain quality players, resulting in teams that suck?

Gonch said... lots of stuff regarding various entertainment venues. I will agree with him on that nobody is making anybody buy anything at any of them. During my own visit to CP this past summer, some family members came later in the day, bringing food that we ate in the picnic area in front of the gate. They're passholders who buy food in park as seldom as possible because they think it's overpriced and poor quality. Anecdotal, but take it FWIW.

Regarding the NFL, most stadiums range in capacity between 60 and 80 thousand seats. Teams only get 500-600K admissions to collect their revenue, but then they have income from mass merchandising and TV deals, which parks not named Disney can only dream of. They can set their price point at whatever the person buying the last seat can afford or chooses to spend. Cedar Point needs to draw more than 500,000 people, so they need to appeal to a wider audience that includes people with incomes lower than NFL season ticket holders.

The NFL also has broader appeal (more fans) than amusement parks do, so they can afford to be more selective and pricey in their ticket prices. A lot of tickets sold at stadiums and arenas are also purchased by businesses that can claim them as business entertainment expenses. I don't think they can do that for the company picnic.

I can't see park guests agreeing that they should pay prices comparable to a Rascal Flatts concert, although dollars per hour would make an interesting marketing campaign. The thing is, a lot of people might have checked out that concert and decided the price was too high. We don't really know. But as long as the Nutter Center gets a few thousand to say the price isn't too high, it doesn't matter.

One note about the food... there was a new person running food this year (new to the position, certainly not the company). He takes criticism seriously, he's open to suggestions (he says the experimental cheese curd cart was in part due to Diana raving about it at Valleyfair) and he actually seems to know food. If you did the Eerie Estate dinner during Halloweekends or the media preview, you know what I'm talking about. I'm anxious to see what kind of impact he has over the long term, and if he can make change.

Funny you bring up the Power Tower lighting, Dave. Diana saw one of my older pics of the park and asked when it was magenta. I told her about every minute or so when the lighting worked. While they're at it, I think the lenses on the Millennium Force lighting need to be cleaned again and some of the instruments need repair. I'm not sure who maintains that stuff. You'd think Live-E techies would be the right people, but I think they could be owned by P&D or operations. I really don't even know.