What's going wrong at Cedar Point?

The same experience can be perceived very differently by different people. There are a lot of things from the 70s/80s CP that I miss but overall I prefer today's CP because it offers a better collection of rides (at least to me) including rides which were long waits back then which are close to walk-ons now. Though as I noted before, I don't go to the park for the food, souvenirs or hotels. And I cannot recall ever noticing that the lights on the power tower do not all work. And I really don't miss 6 train operation on Gemini (though I do like when the trains actually race). But from the various posts I have seen here and at PB, I understand many of those things are important to a lot of folks.

The explanation I have seen for the Cleveland Zoo's increased attendance numbers this year is the bad economy. More folks were looking for things to do that were free or close to free rather than more expensive activities. And they had some huge Monday attendance days this summer in large part because Cuyahoga County residents get in the zoo for free on Mondays.

And the Cavs have great attendance because they have one of the best players in the game and a team that is very good. If they lose Lebron and the team goes back to pre-Lebron performance, attendance would drop back in the near term to pre-Lebron levels. And at that point, the long lines for the Simon burgers disappear. With Lebron and a winning team, you will draw huge crowds even if you sell nothing but bologna sandwiches. Without either, you won't draw crowds with five star meals at bologna prices.

RatherGoodBear said:
And I still haven't shaken the idea that SF even considered the idea a while back of charging re-admission for anyone leaving the park for any reason at all. So yeah, those kinds of businesses I try to give as little of my money as possible.

Don't forget, some parks (ahem...KI) run with this policy during their Halloween events.

Dorney does too. Given the past problems with people leaving and returning to cause trouble, I don't have a problem with that. Even that's only a 5-6 hour time period, assuming haunt events run from 5 or 6 to 11 or 12.

But if a park tries to institute a policy like that all day long all season long to keep people from "sneaking" out to eat lunch in their cars, that's another story.

Who's to say it wasn't to stop trouble? Or that the CF parks aren't doing it for reasons other than publicly stated? Seems like you're connecting dots that aren't necessarily connected.

And besides, we know SF claims an average visit of 8 1/2 hours. Is that 2 1/2 difference where the line is crossed? How long is the limit on forcing your guests to stay?

Just kinda funny to me that you don't like the term captive audience when SF uses it, but are ok with CF parks literally keeping their guests captive.

RatherGoodBear said:
What I have issue with is the "only guy in town" syndrome, like the gas station that charges 30 cents a gallon more because they're right next to the interstate. Or the plumber who decides to double his rates because it's an emergency. I think that's the game the parks like CF and SF play. If you don't like paying $12 or $15 for a meal that's mediocre at best, where else are you going to go? They know the other choices are either non-existent or extremely inconvenient.

Isn't that pretty much how commerce works? The rarer or more in demand something is, the more it costs. Supply and demand.

My ice cubes cost a pretty penny at the Equator, but I can't give them away at the North Pole.

I think the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo is easily one of the best values anywhere (well, except here in Seattle, where Microsoft employees get huge discounts on museums and such, like three or five bucks a person). The "old" cat and primate building not withstanding, it's a great zoo, the concessions aren't out-of-line expensive, and they have big kittehs. For ten bucks, what's not to love?

The Cavs do have Lebron James, sure, but along with every other team in the league, they've turned arena basketball into this huge family party experience. They line up promotions every night, have cheerleaders, dance teams and acrobatic mascots (don't ask me what the hell Moondog is supposed to be), aisle vendors are entertainers themselves, the video screens get the crowd involved... I mean, there's a basketball team going on as well, but it's more than that. And it has to be, because even if you do have #23 on "your" team, the tickets just ain't cheap. You have to demonstrate value and quality.

The Cavs do have a lot of circus type activities going on around the basketball game. But they had some of those things before they started winning and the tickets didn't sell very well. And if you remove Lebron and the winning from the equation, I just can't see all of that stuff making that much of a difference (certainly not for very long). Only one way to know for sure but I hope we never find out.

After reading 8 pages of comments I have to wonder, why do any of you go to Cedar Point or a Cedar Fair park if you are this unhappy with the way things operate? Isn't that rewarding poor performance and ENABLING the problem? Talking about it does nothing, action speaks louder than words.

For the first time in 25 years I did not go to Cedar Point in 2009. Sure, I panicked a little over the thought of not riding some of my favorite rides and being up on the lake, but I got over it. The thought of continuing to embolding Kinzel & Co. financially with my money literally makes me want to vomit. With everything I know, Kinzel & Co. are as bad as all the crooks in the financial markets that sent America into this economic disastor we are in. Dick is an arrogant and bad leader, plain and simple.

My theme park "dollars" in 2009 where spent at Busch Gardens Williamsburg. I paid my own admission and parking for once and was happy to do so. It thunderstormed and I still had a great time, the park is that amazing. I even spent money on food, which I rarely do in a park and NEVER do at Cedar Point. In 2010 I have no plans on visiting Cedar Point, I think I will probably try and get to Orlando to visit some of the parks there. I might even give <gasp> a Six Flags park a try. It matters that much to me to reward those companies that are doing the right thing and if I can help them succeed in some small way I will.

Lastly, as much talk as there is about the corporate management, there still are many issues in the middle management ranks, particularly at Cedar Point. I personally witnessed a conference call where the marketing team at Cedar Point, who are 100% reponsible for marketing Wildwater Kingdom, didn't even know what attractions the park had. Frankly, it's disgraceful and my jaw about hit the floor and I wanted to scream at them! Sadly, this is how things operate in the world of Cedar Fair. Lets face it folks, we are now in the beginning stages of the downfall of Cedar Fair and it will only excellerate unless new coporate management is brought in quickly.

I personally didn't buy a lot of food or do lengthy hotel stays. Does that work for you Mr. Action-Not-Words? Do I get an activist button with a gold star?

No buttons or stars for you Jeff. I just call it as I see it.

Lord Gonchar said:
Who's to say it wasn't to stop trouble? Or that the CF parks aren't doing it for reasons other than publicly stated? Seems like you're connecting dots that aren't necessarily connected.

And besides, we know SF claims an average visit of 8 1/2 hours. Is that 2 1/2 difference where the line is crossed? How long is the limit on forcing your guests to stay?

Just kinda funny to me that you don't like the term captive audience when SF uses it, but are ok with CF parks literally keeping their guests captive.

RatherGoodBear said:
What I have issue with is the "only guy in town" syndrome, like the gas station that charges 30 cents a gallon more because they're right next to the interstate. Or the plumber who decides to double his rates because it's an emergency. I think that's the game the parks like CF and SF play. If you don't like paying $12 or $15 for a meal that's mediocre at best, where else are you going to go? They know the other choices are either non-existent or extremely inconvenient.

Isn't that pretty much how commerce works? The rarer or more in demand something is, the more it costs. Supply and demand.

My ice cubes cost a pretty penny at the Equator, but I can't give them away at the North Pole.

If that's the case, I'd say at least CF like most other companies has the good sense to not state publicly state that's what they're doing and why. On the other hand, I've read dozens of SF press releases and other public documents where they keep referring to guests as a "captive audience" who are subject to whatever advertising and price gouging they can come up with.

Last year, I spent a grand total of 15 hours in CF parks on 2 visits. During one of those I left the park and re-entered. Neither was during Halloween, so the idea of re-entry didn't bother me. Actually, the times I went to Dorney during Halloween, it was only for a few hours and hardly worth the effort to think about leaving and re-entering.

Isn't that pretty much how commerce works on the customer side of things? If it doesn't affect me, I don't care. Or do only the people making money get to decide that?

I have to wonder, why do any of you go to Cedar Point or a Cedar Fair park if you are this unhappy with the way things operate?

Perhaps you missed the part where I said I only used my Plat pass three times total last year, and was not planning on buying one this year.

I may not get one this year eather. $160 is a lot for a pass. I have already bought my six flags pass($50), and I may get a bgw pass($99). I will still come out $10 richer, and have passes to 2 park chains than if I were to get a platinum pass.

RatherGoodBear said:
Isn't that pretty much how commerce works on the customer side of things? If it doesn't affect me, I don't care.

Then what SF does should matter to you even less. (based on my impression that you haven't visted a SF park in ages and are not an investor in the company)

Maybe there is some potential with the zoo/museum model for amusement parks. Its a lot easier to provide value when you are subsidized by donations. My guess is that if folks have to pay the full freight of the costs/expenses of zoos/museums with each visit, a lot fewer folks would find value in the visits and food prices would be higher to help cover costs of operation. If coaster enthusiasts donated tens of thousands of dollars each year to their favorite parks, made parks beneficiaries of their wills donating millions of dollars when they die, and donated millions of dollars for new rides/other improvements/renovations in exchange for naming rights or to have a plaque installed outside the ride/improvement with the donor's name on it, I suspect the parks will be able to reduce admission and food prices. So who wants to make the first donation? :)

^ That might be funny.

Here are some possiblities:

Top Thril Dragster sponsord by Summit Racing

Corkscrew by Mondavi Vinyards

Raptor by Yamaha

Mantis by Terminix

Maverick by Ford

Gemini by NASA

Millenium Force by the US Armed Forces

Disaster Transport by State Farm

I believe that Lakemont Park in Altoona, PA gets some kind of help from the local government. I've heard many times that the park has been kept open more to provide a service to the community and less as a way for owners to profit. Maybe Barry could tell us how true that is.

Re: Cedar Fair Halloween events. At Knotts, who arguably has been doing it for more years than any other park, it is a separate event not included in park admission. The park is open all day until about 4pm...but if you spend the day at the park and wish to return for Haunt you have to exit and pay for a ticket to attend Haunt. By that time you're usually SOL as the event often sells out to capacity...it's always best to buy tickets in advance for Scary Farm.

Exit and re-entry during normal operating hours should be included in admission; exiting the park and trying to re-enter during a special event should not. Just my $.02.

I know of at least two amusement parks that are owned by 501(c)(3) non-profit corporations and I am sure there are probably more--

1) Oaks Park, Portland, OR.

2) Gilroy Gardens, Gilroy, CA. Oddly enough, that park is operated by Cedar Fair.

I believe the usual structure is that the park itself is not a charitable operation, but rather it is a for-profit activity which exists for the purpose of supporting the charity.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Lord Gonchar said:

RatherGoodBear said:
Isn't that pretty much how commerce works on the customer side of things? If it doesn't affect me, I don't care.

Then what SF does should matter to you even less. (based on my impression that you haven't visted a SF park in ages and are not an investor in the company)

Well they're certainly giving me no reason to consider going again. If it bothers you that I don't share your glee over them, well TFB.

Not at all. At this point I'm pretty much just commenting on how you keep contradicting yourself in an effort to find the negative.

You made a point to jump in about the 'captive audience' thing being bad when SF uses the term in business reports and is rumored to have considered it and then continue to say it's ok when CF actually does it.

And then explain that the CF thing doesn't bother you because it doesn't affect you even though you visit their parks, yet somehow the SF thing does bother you although it can't affect you being as you don't visit their parks and have no desire to.

Just questioning it. Or pointing out why the complaint doesn't feel very valid, at least.

Not sharing glee is fine, I'd expect nothing less. But one would hope for a better reason than, "They use business terms about, and consider doing things to, their customers, that other parks actually do."