What's going wrong at Cedar Point?

wcoff0309 said:
I completely agree about Kinzel's total lack of respect for CF's seasonal employees. Having spent 7 seasons with CF, I can't tell you the numerous times I heard upper management refer to seasonals as if they were second hand citizens. I think Kinzel and his team have really forgotten who is really running the parks most of the time.

I agree with you to a degree. I did a season at CP ( Group Utility in '05), and while I didn't see the upper management often, the times I did, I felt that that they wer courtious. Now on the other hand, CP's employees do seem to get the short end of the stick, espeaclly when it comes to the paychecks.

If anybody from the US or Ohio Labor Depts dropped in , they'd ffind viloations out the wazoo.

As far as I'm concerned, your only safe bets at Cedar Point are the corporate chain restaurants. (Chick-Fil-A, Johnny Rockets, Subway, etc.) And even those are marked up to over double the original price you'd pay outside the park. (Paid $11 for a number 1 Chick-Fil-A sandwich combo with a lemonade. Total at my local Chick-Fil-A for the same combo was $5.01)

But isn't this exactly part of the value perception mentioned earlier in this thread? Paying 2x for what you can get any other day of the year is not what most would consider a good value. Sure the quality is up there when compared to Coasters or any other walk-up food stand, but it's not worth 2x the normal price. The $10 Subway 6" combo is not a "value" meal.

IMHO, the best place to grab something to eat at the park is technically outside the park. Get the hand stamp and wander out to Famous Dave's or Friday's in the Breakers. The markup isn't as bad as in the park and the quality is way way above anything in the park.

Unless there have been significant changes since I worked there you will not find violations in the labor pay, working conditions, etc. While I can blast Kinzel for this or that I will defend his operation of a safe, legally run park.

But, I don't think that is good enough. (And, I would argue that just about everything discussed in this thread impacts the guest experience either directly or indirectly.) I have been arguing that Cedar Point has to do better than the next guy when it comes to pay and "benefits" for its seasonal workforce.

If you are going to charge a premium price for a less than premium product (it...the food for instance) then you darn well better at least make the experience premium by having friendly, courteous employees who are motivated to move the product, treat you well, etc. That isn't the case at the Point.

Now, they can't offer full time-type benefits to a seasonal workforce. But, they can pay a little better than you can get down the street at the mall. (They have taken away when it comes to pay and bonus...not improved it.) They have the "luxury" of having something most other parks don't...housing. But, by and large the living conditions are crap. Unless I've missed something they have done nothing to make life a little better for those seasonal employees who work during the two "hell weeks" when they are short on help but still operating at high attendance levels. So, if you actually made it to that point in the season...those two weeks will finally kill you.

Now, I will admit that I am stunned every year that they are allowed to open and house people in Cedars and the Gold dorms. There may well be something shady going on there between the park and the Sandusky Fire Marshals Office.

Instead of improving the working experience for employees they have relied heavily on the BUNAC program. If that program ever goes away or becomes less reliable then the park is really going to be in a bind. What next? Prisoner release teams?

Cedar Point/Fair CAN survive. What we have not got a chance to see is how the company would operate under different leadership. I would be much more agreeable to seeing my units sit without growth for another couple of years IF they brought in someone new who would bring a new philosophy to the company.

Not enough hugging, that's the problem!

This was a flippant comment, but it's actually true. Wahoo restates it even better.

If you are going to charge a premium price for a less than premium product (it...the food for instance) then you darn well better at least make the experience premium by having friendly, courteous employees who are motivated to move the product, treat you well, etc. That isn't the case at the Point.

Here's a simple example. Back in the day, there were ride hosts at the entrance to every major ride. They would look you in the eye, smile, and maybe even say something nice to the kids. Now---when there are actually hosts even there---they sit, sullenly, with their little candy canes, staring off into space, waiting to bust the shoe-stuffers.

That little difference---and it is little---is representative of a change in tone that makes a big impression on me. It's not a recent change either---been that way for a while now. Maybe back in the day was never that good, I don't know.

But, if I compare the experience to the one I get at Disney, or at Dollywood, there's just no comparison. Those might be unfair, because Disney is a year-round operation, and Dollywood is close to one, so the seasonal labor force issues are less pronounced. But, I hear Holiday World pulls it off, too, so it isn't just seasonal vs. not.

CP Chris said:

Jeff said:

wahoo skipper said:
I like Bill but why is he so much more successful than other experienced operations people?

He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, and probably one of the most intensely enthusiastic people in the business.

I couldn't agree more. I think the biggest help has been that a lot of his friendliness and enthusiasm is focused on making the people under him (from managers to supervisors to seasonals) feel valued. He goes out of his way to make sure employees know that if they're doing a good job, he'll be first in line to congratulate them. He's also done a lotto instill ownership and pride for the job into the various crews in operations, and I think that's something that's been very visible to the guests the last couple of years.

Well, then which is it? On the one hand we've established that Dick Kinzel is a micromanaging tyrant who undervalues and under-utilizes his staff so much he renders his GMs irrelevant. Now we say this person who we like is successful because he embodies all of the characteristics we value in leadership.

And before anyone tells me about it not being a binary world (:) ), please understand I don't expect one of these things to be true and the other not. I am just trying to sift through the emotional subjective opinion and get to a better understanding of how the parks are really doing.

Here's a simple example. Back in the day, there were ride hosts at the entrance to every major ride. They would look you in the eye, smile, and maybe even say something nice to the kids. Now---when there are actually hosts even there---they sit, sullenly, with their little candy canes, staring off into space, waiting to bust the shoe-stuffer.

That little difference---and it is little---is representative of a change in tone that makes a big impression on me. It's not a recent change either---been that way for a while now. Maybe back in the day was never that good, I don't know.

And the best thing I can offer is that my experience at the park last spring was nothing like you describe here. The ride ops and other staff were all courteous and if I remember correctly there were even a few trip reports that came out indicating they thought things were turning around because of Bill's return to the park.

I'll play devil's advocate here to say that on all the occasions I've interacted with Dick as an employee, he has been courteous, enthusiastic, and even thanked me one day (for no apparent reason other than that I was working for him). I never thought for a moment that he was unappreciative or rude in person, it's just that the working conditions he advocates might lead you to believe otherwise.

I've always thought that a lot of what people perceive as being wrong would have to be solved in a way that would initially be considered an unjustifiable expenditure or loss of revenue. (People are not satisfied with food? Improve the quality or lower the price) When your company is publicly traded you are forced to live by the quarterly report. Initiatives that would hurt in the short but save in the long are frowned upon because their is no immediate payoff. I sincerely hope the proposed privatization of Cedar Fair will help cultivate a change in this pattern of thinking.

My reply was going to be very simmilar to Fun's reply above, so I'll just say that I support that, and move on to my next point...

---

During the "Hell Weeks", the park offers free housing, which is a kind gesture. It is pretty difficult if you live far enough away from home that you can't go back and forth between Home and Sandusky during that time. Your paychecks are cut more than in half, and you have nothing to do during the weekdays. That's the toughest time in an employee's work season, imo, and getting to keep the $30 for housing each week isn't quite enough.

---

The Bill Spehn that I worked for was much different than the Bill Spehn that some of you are talking about. He was the most un-nice guy to work for that I have ever encountered in any of my employment, anywhere. Maybe he has improved his attitude or something has changed. He screamed at guests to put their shirt on or put out their cigarette, instead of nicely asking, and he screamed at me for singing along with the midway music while running a ride, even though my hand was over the E-Stop and my eyes were fixed on the ride, and I was fully aware of everything going on around me.

Maybe Bill just treats seasonal employees poorly, or maybe he used to be a miserable man but has changed for the better. He still might be the best person for the job.

My experience with employees at CP has been hit or miss. Some appear to be motivated, positive, hard working, etc. and others are not. That isn't unique to CP and its also not unique to low wage jobs. Seasonality of the business doesn't help.

You will always find folks who view prices as being too high (unless its free and then I am sure there would be folks complaining about something else). That isn't new. I don't save receipts and compare prices at CP to other places such as movie theaters and sporting venues but it seems to me the prices are pretty high at all three (and the quality isn't anything to write home about). And whatever the differences between the three may exist are not sufficiently high to make a difference in whether I go to such places (in large part because I do not frequent any of those places).

But I expect that any business looks at the numbers in terms of pricing with a mind toward maximizing profits (ideally that would be in the long terms though as someone else noted, short term thinking predominates) such that if they could reduce prices on hamburgers by a buck or two and increase the number of folks coming to the park and/or buying hamburgers enough to offset the lost revenue from the price reduction and thus increase profits, they would do so. And that is typically done by businesses on all levels of pricing decisions. Maybe CP doesn't do that. I would be surprised if they didn't but I do not know for sure that they do.

Carrie M. said:
I think that's true to a certain extent. It just depends on what people are considering to be failures. Many that have been described in this thread, though, are the kind that have no bearing on the guest experience and therefore aren't really failures in terms of the business from a revenue generating perspective.

Huh? If people feel screwed for having to buy crappy food at ridiculous prices, and the failures described here contributed to that, I think it's completely relevant. Everything talked about has impact on the guest experience.

LostKause said:
The Bill Spehn that I worked for was much different than the Bill Spehn that some of you are talking about. He was the most un-nice guy to work for that I have ever encountered in any of my employment, anywhere.

Perhaps it was the employee. I've been with him when he's interacted with seasonals, and the guy you describe is not the one I've seen in action.

I was a model employee, Jeff. I observed him terrorizing the guests many more times than I felt his wrath. Nice try though.

You know, I will say that when Bill wasn't working, and was just visiting the park with his children, he was a nice enough guy. It was when he wore the name tag that he was at his worst, but maybe that's what got the job done well.

Jeff said:

Huh? If people feel screwed for having to buy crappy food at ridiculous prices, and the failures described here contributed to that, I think it's completely relevant. Everything talked about has impact on the guest experience.

Well, people feeling screwed for having to buy crappy food is a completely subjective observation and not one the per cap revenue would seem to support.

But regardless, I said many of the things in this thread, not all. For example, I think it matters little to the guest what the living arrangements for seasonal employees might be. Now some argue that those issues translate to unhappy employees which hampers the guest experience, but I'm not convinced. That's still just subjectivity really.

That's why I appreciate what Dave was getting at. The only real problem the numbers are supporting right now is in attendance. The question is why is that an issue. Is it the economy? Is it poor marketing? Is it guest experience? Or something else?

For the most part, all we have are a bunch of opinions about things we don't like. That's hard to go on for me.

hmm... as a person who has worked at both cedar fair (dorney) and six flags (great adventure) I have to say... that working at Six Flags is so much better... we are allowed to have a lot more fun with our job and for some reason better people seem to visit six flags parks. I get payed more at Six Flags and actually really enjoy my job and Im so exited because we are making huge strives and I will continue to work my summer job there... makes me really happy :)

Bill does have his moments that cause sheer and utter fear in his employees, namely when he is fired up about something, but this is largely outweighed by the positive interactions. In fact, I can vouch for Jeff's account because I was one of the seasonals he pulled over to chat with while you two were playing cornhole ;) .

Hahahahaha! No kidding, that was you? That day always stands out in my mind for some reason. I was just out on lunch from work that day and just wasting time when I ran into Bill.

Sorry, LK, but I don't buy your side of the story.

Carrie M. said:
Well, people feeling screwed for having to buy crappy food is a completely subjective observation and not one the per cap revenue would seem to support.

No, it exactly supports the rise in per cap... and the decline in attendance. That was my point.

For example, I think it matters little to the guest what the living arrangements for seasonal employees might be. Now some argue that those issues translate to unhappy employees which hampers the guest experience, but I'm not convinced.

Well you kinda argued my point. None of these aspects of the way a park is operated exist in a vacuum. It's all in the circle of life, so to speak. It gets back kinda to the "death by a thousand cuts" thing I was talking about in the podcast. They may not individually seems that important, but collectively they do.

The per cap is up not because people don't care about that crappy food...but because they don't have any choice. What they MAY be choosing to do though is not go back for a second visit or perhaps not return the following year. And, there is no way to account for the folks that might be going home and telling their friends and family that they got bent over a chair while at the park.

(And, I'm growing a little tired of the comparison to going to a concert or professional sporting event.) I don't know anyone who is at those things for more than a few hours so in all liklihood you can get by with one meal (if that) and limited other expenses once you have paid for your ticket.

There is no doubt in my mind that college kids in the midwest have a sense of what working at Cedar Point is like. I interviewed kids on campuses in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and elsewhere and they had already heard about the housing and pay from others. In fact, it was not unusual to hear someone say, "I might come work there but I won't live in X dorm."

And, it also was not unusual to have employees show up for check in, get their room keys, open the door, and head right back down to their cars and head home. I had to make magic happen several times in order to convince some of my hired staff not to leave. When the BUNAC kids arrive at Cedar Point they don't have a lot of options to get back in the taxi and dive back to the aiport.

I don't want it to sound like a shot at you Carrie but I consider Dick's absolute disregard for the living experience to be absolutely ignorant and short sighted. What could be one of their greatest features for the workforce is one of their greatest detriments.

He was just as ignorant when Breakers East was built. They took down the old (yet popular) employee rec center and waited several years to build a replacement (off the peninsula). That was a wildly unpopular move not only with the seasonal staff but with the full time staff who knew the benefit of that rec center as it pertained to employee comfort.

I don't think the per cap exactly supports anything. That's the problem.

I'm less inclined to believe, though, that folks are paying for that food and then deciding not to return because of it. I can't get my head around the idea that food at the amusement park matters that much.

I'm not wanting to dispute it, per se. I just would be happier with some significant customer satisfaction survey information that supported it.

Attendance is tricky. There are so many reasons it could be down.

Edited to add since Wahoo Skipper got in there before me:

Wahoo Skipper said:

There is no doubt in my mind that college kids in the midwest have a sense of what working at Cedar Point is like. I interviewed kids on campuses in Pennsylvania, West Virgina and elsewhere and they had already heard about the housing and pay from others. In fact, it was not unusual to hear someone say, "I might come work there but I won't live in X dorm."

And, it also was not unusual to have employees show up for check in, get their room keys, open the door, and head right back down to their cars and head home. I had to make magic happen several times in order to convince some of my hired staff not to leave. When the BUNAC kids arrive at Cedar Point they don't have a lot of options to get back in the taxi and dive back to the aiport.

I don't want it to sound like a shot at you Carrie but I consider Dick's absolute disregard for the living experience to be absolutely ignorant and short sighted. What could be one of their greatest features for the workforce is one of their greatest detriments.

I hear you. And I don't even disagree that the housing is likely atrocious. I just don't know if it translates to the "problem" at Cedar Point. They have had record seasonal employee applications the past couple of years, so I'm not thinking the word of mouth is deterring too many people.

Maybe what I should be asking everyone is what they determine the problem to be rather than what the causes are. What exactly is the indication that there's a problem? Attendance is down. But how much and for how long and is it enough to qualify as a downward trend rather then a dip? I really don't know.

This potential sale isn't necessarily an indication of a Cedar Point problem. Attendance was up across the chain and that was the intention for diversifying with additional parks. They wanted other parks to pick up where some may be slipping. That's happening.

And Wahoo Skipper, you don't have to worry about me taking your post as a shot. I appreciate the dialogue. I'm really not trying to be contrary, but rather want to hear something other than complaints and opinions.

Lots of people think lots of things about lots of stuff, you know? :) What does that all mean, though?

I'll give you an example from my neck of the woods. I live within a pretty reasonable drive of a Lion Country Safari (which has a few amusment rides) and the Miami Metrozoo (a highly regarded zoo...so I'm told). There is no doubt about the fact that the food at Lion Country is far less than average but priced as you might expect it to be.

The food at Miami Metrozoo is actually pretty good, the price is about what you'd expect for adults and the kids' prices seemed pretty reasonable.

Both offer a pretty similar experience. We will go to the Zoo several times in a year but it has been at least a few years since we've been to Lion Country. The food isn't the calling card for either park but it ends up playing a role in where we decide to go.

Actually, come to think of it, the employees at the Zoo tend to stick out in my mind more for their friendliness and helpfulness than do those at Lion Country. I don't know if that is a subconscious part of my decision or not.

I don't think the food at the Point in and of itself is the reason for the park woes. I think the food, diminished entertainment, drop in customer service, focus on thrill rides, parking fees, etc all play a part in what is happening right now. And yes, the current economy in Ohio/Michigan is playing a significant role too.

And, the trending of per cap up/attendance down was happening before the economy took a ride down the first hill of MF.

Oh, hell, I keep taking too long with my posting! :) I edited my last post because of your previous post and then I find another one from you. lol

I understand what you are saying. Choosing between two very similar things that have two different food experiences will lead you to the better food experience. So if we think Cedar Point is the same as other parks, then that translates. If we don't, then it doesn't.

And you forgot to mention the lack of SpongeBob in your list of reasons! I can't believe no one has brought that up yet. ;)

And the best thing I can offer is that my experience at the park last spring was nothing like you describe here. The ride ops and other staff were all courteous and if I remember correctly there were even a few trip reports that came out indicating they thought things were turning around because of Bill's return to the park.

That's good news---but last year was the year all the crap from prior years finally caught up to me, because we only visited CP twice.

http://coasterbuzz.com/Forums/Thread/56859.aspx?page=3#797986

I'm no fan of SpongeBob but if iCarly paid a visit then I would be on the hook for returning again as that is my 3 year old girls favorite show right now. But, if they take Snoopy and the gang out of the parks then I'm done with Cedar Fair!!!

Cedar Point never had a problem getting enough applicants. The problem they have is getting QUALITY applicants. And, should they have the good fortune to hire quality employees then they face the daunting task of retaining them throughout the season.

You know, Kinzel himself has said before that their competition is ever evolving. Now they have to compete agains online gaming, improving technology with home theatre, high tech video games, etc and the list goes on and on. But, it isn't just Cedar Fair that has to compete against that stuff. Disney and Universal face it too.

So, what is different there? Well, when is the last time WDW built a significant thrill ride? I guess you'd have to go back to Everest. But, they have also put in Toy Story Mania which is wildly successful and does not go high or fast. In fact, my 3 year old rode it in my lap and enjoyed it just as much as daddy. WDW also had a hit with Buzz Lightyear. Universal hit with the Men in Black ride...also not a 300' rollercoaster.

Dollywood and others are having success with more family oriented attractions.

You are right, it is more than food, ride selection, customer service, mouting debt, the Paramount acquisition, employing family members, losing valuble full time experience for one reason or the other, etc.

But, what is the common denominator in ALL of those symptoms? You have to point to Kinzel. And, we have not seen if new leadership can make a change because the beholden Board of Directors chooses to stand silent.

Of course, the damage may be done. It is possible that the mounting debt is such an insurmountable obstacle that no new leader could steer clear of it. We will never know because they have allowed Dick to stay on for too long, in my humble opinion.