What's going wrong at Cedar Point?

After reading the last few pages, the biggest omission for me is CF's debt load, while my biggest take away is the lack of exit marketing. I don't want to argue weather buying Paramount was a good decision or not - it's in the past. The reality is a host of things happened which made it a bad decision, so I suspect many recent decisions are impacted by the debt load (food service pricing and profitability to be specific). I also always assumed market research was held confidentially and never considered it wasn't done. (interesting).

I agree the value proposition of CP needs improving. Paying $200/night for a room and not have in-room coffee or internet is not up to today's standards. I could also write a book about park food service. A very strong arguement can be made on how we percieve things differently as we age. I'm 50 and probably out of CP's target demographic. Movie theater food service is of a similar quality and price - do twenty and thirty something customers percieve the food service as poorly as I do?

Being 50, I also remember the ol' school work ethic and morals of part timers, and it certainly has changed. I agree the quality of customer service at CP needs work, and it's quite possible CP's management hasn't adjusted to get the results they want from today's employees.

There are a lot of challenges for CP (imo), and while we can all list them, and have, I think more things are going right. Weather you like the buyout or not, at least CP is trying to solve for their debt load.

Once the debt issue is resolved, a stronger business plan can be implimented to solve for the other challenges like value.

Oh, they do exit marketing, I know that for sure. It doesn't mean that people are empowered to act on what they know.

Im 26 years old, and that food is too expensive and cheap.

Jeff said:
Oh, they do exit marketing, I know that for sure. It doesn't mean that people are empowered to act on what they know.

Collecting reliable and accurate data is half the battle. Getting people to analyze that well, and others to act upon it, that's the other 90%. ;)

Also Midway market isn't bad

It wasn't too bad when it first opened. But, over the years, the selection on the buffet went "cheap", there's too little turnover on the lines (so it is often overcooked/dried out), and cleanliness had slipped. It went from being our go-to place to "wonder how bad the wait is at Game Day or Dave's" in not very much time at all.

With regard to crowds, my experiences in the last 2 years have been somewhat mixed. At SFMM and KBF it seems that if you go on a day that is normally not busy, the crowds are even lighter than they were when the economy was better. On days which are normally crowded, the crowds have been just as large as ever.

SFMM had the whole parking lot, including the overflow lot, full when I was there in July and August. In late May and early June, they had the whole normal lot full, but not the overflow lot.

I went to KBF on a Monday in mid-June, and it was the most crowded I have ever seen it. All the major coasters had 2 hour lines and the family coasters, water rides and flat rides were about 90 mins each. GhostRider had a 2 hour line, 10 mins after the park opened. When I went to Adventure City on 11/21/09, I drove past KBF on the way home, and every parking lot appeared to be near capacity, including the dirt lot across La Palma Ave. and the dirt areas in the parking lot across Beach Blvd.

On the other hand, at SFMM on 3/1/09, X2 had a 90 min line, but every other coaster was a walk on. It was the least crowded Sunday I have ever seen, other than Super Bowl Sunday, or the time I went there years ago, when the high temp was 45, and there were less than 10 people in line for each ride, which is what I usually find on school days.

I guess I have a different view than other folks. I see a lot of people saying that CP needs to provide value but to me, they already do in the only thing of concern to me: rides. I don't go to amusement parks for the food, hotels or souvenirs. I don't go to sporting events, movies or ski resorts for those things either. I go for the rides. I don't have passes to CP (or any other park). I go 1 or 2 times a year. I have been to many of the better food, service, etc. parks (such as Disney and Busch Gardens Williamsburg) and the food and service were better but the ride experience was not. I do not see CP prices as being outside what I see for other similar entertainment venues though I do not keep receipts and make detailed comparisons.

I do not think that comparisons to Disney and CP attendance with respect to the recession is an apples to apples comparison My guess is that a significanly higher percentage of CP's potential customers have lost jobs or are worried about losing their jobs than Disney's potential customers. And economics of Disney hotels are a lot different from CP hotels which difference has a big impact on discount decisions.

^Ride wise to me CP is on an equal playing field with BGW. Both have a handful of coasters I could ride over and over again, both have some good supporting rides I love to ride multiple times a trip, and what BGW loses on mediocre flat rides it more then makes up that in shows (not to mention I could always just hop off to Water Country USA as well which is 300X the waterpark Soak City is.)

As for comparing it to Disney World, well no park on the planet compares to that place in rides/experiences period. Also please tell me how the economics of CP's hotel vs Disney is different, they are both a side business meant to make money and bring more people to the parks.

Touchdown said:
Also please tell me how the economics of CP's hotel vs Disney is different, they are both a side business meant to make money and bring more people to the parks.

I think they're completely different approaches and did some thinking aloud on the last page of this thread that you may have missed.

Lord Gonchar said:

Dude, in my neck of the woods $8 is a BK value meal. Red Robin is $10 give or take...plus drink price.

Well... not exactly. You're comparing an $8 burger to an $8 value meal. Add fries and a Pepsi at Cedar Point, and now that $8 BK meal is quite a bargain over the $17 park equivalent. (Not to mention that a $1 BK 1/4lb. Double Cheeseburger is better than that $8 CP one.)

TD - LG went through the differences with respect to hotels a page or two back. I have discussed the differences in the past either here or on pointbuzz as well.

Different folks will have different preferences as to rides. BGW has a nice collection of rides and Water Country USA is one of the best water parks I have ever visited. But overall, I prefer CP's collection of rides. And the fact that I can get to CP in about an hour but it takes about 8 hours to get to BGW makes CP that much more appealing to me.

And I realize that I am totally in the minority with respect to Disney but I do not find it appealing. Did the week long trip this summer to all of the parks/water parks. Service was great. Food was good too. But to me, the rides pretty much sucked (other than the tower of terror which was good). None of the coasters was worth riding to me. Couple other rides were interesting but to me have no repeat ride possibilities. I prefer thrill rides over theme rides. I have absolutely no interest in going back at least not until I have grandkids in 20-25 years. I have a few friends who have gone there 10+ years which I wouldn't do if I got the trips for free. But I know my family is in the minority with respect to the Disney experience.

kpjb said:
Well... not exactly. You're comparing an $8 burger to an $8 value meal. Add fries and a Pepsi at Cedar Point, and now that $8 BK meal is quite a bargain over the $17 park equivalent. (Not to mention that a $1 BK 1/4lb. Double Cheeseburger is better than that $8 CP one.)

Does CP really have $8 burgers that aren't a meal?

I ask in all seriousness because I was under the impression that $8 (give or take) is the plate with the sandwich and fries that has been sitting under the heat lamp.

I know the number at KI for the four of us is right around $40. I figure with a drink refill or two included that the plate price is probably $8 and change.

When we say "$8 hamburger" we're not talking literally just a burger, are we?

^ I'm thinking the meals include the fries, and range somewhere between $7.50 and $9.50, depending if you get a dog, burger, or chicken fingers. If you don't do the drink refill thing-- I know I hate carrying a cup around with me all day, and definitely wouldn't bring a cup back for a second visit weeks later-- buying the drink is going to put you in the $11-12 range for a meal. Plus tax.

For reference, I was at Red Robin in Hershey last week, had a bacon cheeseburger for $8.79, which includes endless fries. Five of us ate for $62, which included a generous tip. But we sat at a table that was cleaned just before we were seated, everyone had refills on drinks, and I got to watch a bowl game on TV. OK, I'll excuse not getting to see a bowl game at CP in July.

RatherGoodBear said:
^ I'm thinking the meals include the fries, and range somewhere between $7.50 and $9.50, depending if you get a dog, burger, or chicken fingers.

Yeah, that's about right.

Lord Gonchar said:
Does CP really have $8 burgers that aren't a meal?

Beats me. I'm just playing along with the facts I'm given... I'll go back and edit that to say that a BK dollar double cheeseburger + dollar fries combo = $2, and is larger and better. :)

Actually, last time I was at CP (2 years ago) I ate in the sit-down restaurant by the Snoopy area. Had a Philly Steak that I'd call "Applebee's average" and a healthy order of fries for $7+. The Pepsi was $3+, but at the restaurants they include refills, so I had about 4 of them. Yes, you had to tip there, but I considered it a good value. (I specifically remember this because I thought that everything else there was so bad and outrageously priced, I wondered how it slipped under the radar... also I think that restaurant is gone now.)

All cedarfair parks have the same crappy food and high prices.

Here is a menu from carowinds. And the prices did not include fries.

http://coasterbuzz.com/Forums/Thread/56174.aspx?id=781390

I noticed the crappy food and low value a few years back when I was at Carowinds. It actually affected my day, somewhat.

You call that bad.;) KBF has cheeseburgers for $7.75. I can leave the park, walk somewhere within 2 blocks, and get a meal for less than 1/2 as much money. Icee's are now up to $6.25 for a large too.

I have a feeling things are only going to get worse if Apollo takes over. In my experience, when a company goes private with an investment group, the customer service suffers. The investment company is looking to make a return on their investment and it most often comes in the form of cuts that are perceived as being less customer oriented.

KoasterKeith

I think Jeff mentioned somewhere earlier that the return of Bill Spehn should continue to be a plus for Cedar Point and I don't disagree. But, if one person can so greatly impact the guest experience then that points to something wrong with the entire system. I like Bill but why is he so much more successful than other experienced operations people?

Jeff has been harping on the "value" proposition for a number of years and I think he is correct. While the park continues to be successful at it's core (thrill rides) that does not translate into higher attendance, particularly by customers who spend money. I would liken it to your sports team fanatics. It is great to have a strong, loyal following but if all those people are getting to the game early, tailgating it outside in the parking lot and not spending any money once they walk through gates for kickoff then that does not diminish them as fans but they aren't tremendously helping the bottom line.

When I have walked through Cedar Point on my last few visits I have felt my age. I don't consider myself THAT old but it is pretty obvious I'm not the youngest...by decades. I see LOTS of teenagers and young adults that do not have a significant discretionary income. So, while there is a buzz in the park I'm not sure there is a large contribution to the bottom line.

What does that translate to? Attendance down, per cap up. Where have I heard that before? Well, in each year's annual report for the past five years or so.

Now, some of it can be blamed on the economic crisis but it is dishonest to say the park(s) wasn't heading in that direction prior to the market collapse. And, what was done about that? Not a heck of a lot. At Cedar Point, they said they were going to go after the family market. They experimented with .25 cent cotton candy and built family attractions such as Maverick and Camp Snoopy (neither of which can really be enjoyed by the typical family of mom, dad and two young children)...and by that I mean enjoyed TOGETHER. And, they are throwing money at an attraction this year that I am suspicious of whether or not IT can actually be called a family attraction.

Moreover I think it is fair to say that food pricing has gone up while quality has gone down. (Though I will admit that I thought the Joe Cool's restaurant was one of the few successes of late.) And, considering that Mr Kinzel really cut his teeth in the food service end of the business prior to becoming a GM and CEO...that is a glaring problem.

What have they done right? Well, I think you can say that Lighthouse Point (and it's subsequent expansion) hit the mark. Why they can't look at that success and translate that into other areas of the business is a bit of a mystery.

And, I go back at this time and again but Kinzel's complete disregard for the seasonal employee is biting them when it comes to customer service. Back in the mid 90s when they first started ambitiously going after the BUNAC program I was vocally opposed to it. I insisted that we needed to make the working experience comfortable (housing, employee incentives and activities, etc) in order to really address the problems. Instead they expanded the BUNAC progam to the point when well over a third of their employees (an educated guess) are coming from overseas...not because of the job but because they just want to get to America. I adamantly believe your HUMAN resource is your most important one and Dick doesn't even embrace his full time workforce...let alone his seasonal workforce.

A lot of experienced, dedicated employees have chosen to leave the Point over the past 5-10 years....well before their retirement age. Why is that? I think that is a telling indicator right there. That should be a realy worry for Kinzel but I suspect he doesn't think twice about it. They have lost a couple of good Food Service folks...and we see food service suffering. They lost a couple of good HR folks...and we see HR suffering. They lost a couple of good Operations folks...and we see Operations suffering.

Do I need to draw a map to the real problem with Cedar Point? If I did it would end with an X on the third floor of a fairly new building across the street from the Matterhorn.