What makes bad transitions?

Sunday, May 4, 2003 5:29 PM
What exactly makes a transition bad?
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Intelligence is a God given gift: Know how to use it.
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Sunday, May 4, 2003 5:45 PM
I'd say the wheels not completely touching the top, bottom, and side of the rail the whole time... when it makes a transition, then there's a jerk. If the wheels were touching the whole time, it'd be much smoother.

This happens on Vekoma and Arrow coasters a lot.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 5:46 PM
Planning your rides based on bending coat hangers. ;)

-Nate

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 6:19 PM
Not a large enough radius probably. Inside running rails. Just a guess.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 7:12 PM
You can see on a lot of arrows that the roll is not based on the heartline of the rider, but somewhere around the center of the car. You can also see that the arrow's don't have parabolic transitions (gradual application of force), but straight and then circular non-transitions (sudden application of force).

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Be polite and ignore the idiots. - rollergator
"It's not a Toomer" - Arnold Schwartzenkoph

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 7:31 PM
Plus, if your coaster creations are based around Rollercoaster Tycoon, then you can bet you'd have bad transitions!
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Sunday, May 4, 2003 9:21 PM
Not really, dude... if an engineer (one with a very low IQ, mind you) decided to make a rollercoaster based on a design from the game RCT... I'm sure it'd have pretty bad transitions.
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Sunday, May 4, 2003 10:17 PM
But isn't that basically what Arrow did for years?? ;)

-Nate
*** This post was edited by coasterdude318 5/5/2003 2:39:20 AM ***

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 10:52 PM
Yea however it took many years of research to be able to have good transistions. I've seen a few older Coasters with good transitions, but it wasn't until they started designing coasters on computers when Transitions started to get smoother. You can tell about this from the Arrow Coasters built in the early 90's from the ones built in the late 90's.

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Chris Knight
Be sure to download my latest NL Wooden Looping Coaster creation Dream Blast. Updated for NL 1.3!

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 11:00 PM
Well in the case of Zonga, I found this to be the cause of rough transitions:

1.) The train pulls suddon Gs in a lateral motion.

2.) There is lots of give between the train and the track, thus causing the train to move on the track.

3.) Some parts of the ride had to be squeezed in there causing strange shapes and some fast transitions, so fast they cause the suddon Gs to occur.

So I would say a bad transition is just a transition that isn't completed smoothly. Also metioned earlier, when the center of gravity is off, it isn't comfortable.

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 11:05 PM
Yea as I mention the Thriller (now Zonga) was designed and built in the pre CAD era for coaster building. I wonder if anyone here can desing a perfectly smooth coaster with out using a computer and just using Paper and Pencil. Oh BTW you can use wire to help you.

I belive Wire Bending really helped out with designing coasters. I bet without the wire, the Arrow Coasters wouldn't be rideable at all, and therefore we may not see very few looping coasters being built at all.

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Chris Knight
Be sure to download my latest NL Wooden Looping Coaster creation Dream Blast. Updated for NL 1.3!
*** This post was edited by Sawblade5 5/5/2003 3:10:17 AM ***

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Sunday, May 4, 2003 11:35 PM
There are many Schwarzkopf coasters that are every bit as old as those Arrow designs we're so happily bashing here that ride VERY smooth.

In fact, I find many of the Schwarzkopf designs to be more fun than the newer coasters because in addition to being smooth, they're powerful. (IMO, something most B&M's sorely lack)

...and lay off Arrow! ;)

I'd still take an Arrow airtime machine (Magnum) over B&M's watered down girlie versions (Nitro & Apollo's Chariot, for example). There is beauty in imperfection and that's something lacking in today's "perfectly designed" coasters. I like the little quirks of my favorite older rides.

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www.coasterimage.com
Dorney Park Visits in 2003: 2

*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar 5/5/2003 3:43:15 AM ***

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Monday, May 5, 2003 2:23 AM
hmmm, some 1 said something about early 1990 arrows being quite rough (transition wise). i don't really agree with that. the arrows here in the UK are smooth unless you get into ancient time...

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Colossus [1]
Nemesis: Inferno [6]

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Monday, May 5, 2003 6:57 AM
I've never heard anyone call the Big One smooth. Boring, yes. Smooth, no.

-Nate (who hasn't ridden the Big One, but doesn't like the look of it at all)

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Monday, May 5, 2003 8:18 AM
The end result of a bad transition is generally sudden head movements. These usually aren't a problem unless there is an over the shoulder restraint for your head to bang into. The Premier conversions to lap bars have shown this. Watch someone tall's head on a Premier. It still goes back and forth, it just doesn't have anything to hit.

There is no big secret to transitions that requires a computer. Railroads developed formulas for transition curves in the 19th century to reduce derailments going into curves. Computerized equipment has made it easier and cheaper to bend the transitions though.

How to make a bad transition:

1) Install OTSR's. Without them people probably won't even notice that their head moved..

2) Let your track gaging be loose.

3) Start the final turn radius suddenly without a gradual "transition" section of greater radius.

4) Start the turn at the same time as the banking rather than starting the banking first.

5) Don't do like B&M does where necessary and actually have a slight reverse turn the first few feet of the banking to keep riders heads in a more or less straight line.
*** This post was edited by Jim Fisher 5/5/2003 7:33:57 PM ***

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Monday, May 5, 2003 12:31 PM
I disagree with #4 you have it backwards. In No Limits, When I bank then curve that is considered to be a rough spot, rather I do banking gradually into the light turn to a heavy turn, I keep adjusting and testing until I get the banking bump off the read out.

In some cases #5 is true while other times it just makes it worse. Heartlineing is what #5 mentions, I've seen it used on some but not all B&M transitions, IT is also a very common site on Impulses and the Rocket Coasters (Including Top Thril Dragster) from Intamin. When Designing coasters in a simulator like NL make sure you adjust and test, repeat it until you get the Gs within check and the bumps out of the ride. This can be time consuming but I like doing it. Eventually you get to where it doesn't take much time up doing it.

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Chris Knight
Be sure to download my latest NL Wooden Looping Coaster creation Dream Blast. Updated for NL 1.3!
*** This post was edited by Sawblade5 5/5/2003 4:33:18 PM ***

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Monday, May 5, 2003 3:38 PM
Chris: Remember that my list is a list of how to make bad transitions. #4 is saying to ease on the bank then ease on the curvature.

The use of heartlining depends on the type of curve and how fast you have to get into it. While I'm not into no limits, I suspect that it doesn't offer you an infinite number of combinations.

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Monday, May 5, 2003 4:54 PM

Sawblade5 said:
Yea as I mention the Thriller (now Zonga) was designed and built in the pre CAD era for coaster building.

One thing that is important to note about Zonga was that it was not designed to have OTSRs. Without those, the transitions would be flawless.

I would say that all of Schwarzkopf's stuff is amazing, and the fact that he didn't have the aid of fancy CAD and such makes his achievments more impressive in my mind.

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The Trip: CP, SFWoA, PKI, KW, HW, IB, SFGAm, MiA and LeSourdsville too.
8 Days- 10 parks. May 2003

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Monday, May 5, 2003 5:15 PM
I noticed that rougher rides seem to have the side wheels on the inside of the track instead of running along this outside. If there inside I think there is a possibility of widening the track gauge.

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All who think Mean Streak needs a match taken to it say I.

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Monday, May 5, 2003 5:30 PM

coasterdude318 said:
I've never heard anyone call the Big One smooth. Boring, yes. Smooth, no.
-Nate (who hasn't ridden the Big One, but doesn't like the look of it at all)

Well, here you go:

Weeee!

Weeee!

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