What are they (HW/SS) up to now? (Timberliners on Voyage)

I asked Paula on Facebook about running both types of trains, and she said that it was not possible.

I'd imagine that running both types of trains would have issues when it comes to brake timing; assuming that the trains don't weight exactly the same, or are of the exact same length... as a guess. Not too sure

Not to mention the computer would be going ballistic when a train ends up deviating for the expected timing from the last train.

You are assuming the computer even cares. Just because it is recorded or reported does not necessarily mean the computer makes use of the data.

A bigger problem from a controls perspective is that the Timberliner trains have more cars, and therefore more brake fins to count. Also the gap between fins is different, which might have an effect on switches used for positive presence detection, depending on how the ride is programmed. Running a short train would cause similar issues if the system counts cars.

Swapping trains between the coasters is probably not an option either. While the Raven and Legend trains should be interchangeable, and the Voyage train should be able to run on any of the three, the Voyage train has a car modification that allows it to roll quicker than the other trains. Assuming that the Voyage was built with that modification in mind, the Raven and Legend trains probably can't run on the Voyage.

There are also issues with lap bar switches, but I think one of the Raven trains has the same setup as the Voyage; I am not so sure about the Legend train. And while that system reports back to the controls, I don't know that it is interlocked with the controls.

With any luck this will all be a moot point soon anyway.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

^Dave, what is the modification that lets the train roll faster?

First, let me clarify what I mean by "roll". That's a rotation around the track centerline along the train's longitudinal axis; that is, an axis running front to back through the car.

The back seat in each car is raised about an inch, and the running board is cut away (and covered with a board). That gives the back axle, which is mounted on a longitudinal pivot, more room to swing.

A two-bench PTC car has a four-foot wheelbase and about 3'2" from back wheel to front wheel between cars. Between cars there is plenty of flexibility because the drawheads have practically unlimited roll on a short effective wheelbase. So the roll rate is limited by the longer distance, the wheelbase of the car. On a standard car, as on the Raven or on The Legend, the rear axle can swing about three degrees in either direction. That means the maximum allowable roll rate (without lifting any wheels) is three degrees per four running feet, or more usefully, about 16" of running length per degree. That means that in order to get up to a 90-degree bank from flat track, the train needs a minimum of 120 feet of track.

The track gauge for a wood coaster is roughly 43". If I did my math right (I was never very good at math...) the rated 3-degree swing means there is normally about 1.13 inches of clearance at the running board for the wheel. Add another inch at the running board...and in fact it is probably more than that because the wheel is about 4" outboard of the seat...and (again if my math is right) the available space increases from 3.0 degrees to 5.6 degrees. That increases the allowable roll rate to 5.6 degrees per four running feet, or a mere 8.6" of running length per degree of roll. That reduces the length required for a 90 degree bank to just over 64 feet.

So if the Gravity Guys built the Voyage assuming that the train could roll 1.4 degrees per foot instead of 0.75 degrees per foot, they could have very easily built places on the ride where the car chassis would actually hit the track. And that would be a Bad Thing™.

Because the modification on the Voyage train increases its performance, the train would have no problem running on the other coasters. But because the other trains don't have that mod, they might have problems running on the Voyage.

My understanding is that Gwazi had the first PTC trains to get this modification, but I think it's been standard on all of the rides the Gravity Group has built. I am certain that both Voyage and Ravine Flyer II have this mod, but I don't know if CCI ever used it.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Lol, I think you mean ceases.

So with the differences in the TL vs. the original trains, how do they keep switching back and forth to do testing? Do they have to reprogram controllers differently or does it not matter? You mentioned that the cars are different.

I would imagine that if there are indeed control system difference between the two trains that the PLC program is swapped out for TL testing and restored when the PTC's are put back on. It's probably just a simply file load operation to change the program for testing, but it's totally impractical for day-to-day operation of the two train designs.

What Scott said. :)

Gravitykraft probably designed the Timberliner in such a way that the track hardware doesn't have to change (much) to switch from train to train. But depending on how the program is written, changing the program logic would be fairly simple. It is also possible that for testing purposes they have bypassed the safety system entirely or only using its most rudimentary elements since they are only using one train for that. Remember that the Raven didn't even have a computer on it until it got its second train.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

^It didn't!? Wow! Very cool. Thanks for the explanations, Dave. I know these Timberliners are designed to be super-versatile, the wooden train of the future.

I'm wondering where the testing videos are - can't wait to see how fast that train comes in - could it really be much faster than the PTCs? I couldn't imagine a coaster much faster.

As we've told you, the Timberliner trains won't be ready for riders this weekend or through the holiday weekend. In order to deal with the capacity challenges presented by running just one of the original trains (we hate lines, too!), we've come up with a Plan B.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lpc8L77qkA

Holiday World will be running one of the Raven trains on Voyage. Kudos to Will and the gang.

Good for them. In the end, I'd really love to ride in Timberliners at HWN (those trains factored into my decision to go this year), but regardless, Voyage will be running and that's all I care about...because 2 trains keeps more people away from my beloved Legend :).

That's pretty cool. I'll be excited for HWN either way since I haven't ridden in the PTC's. In fact, I kind of want to ride in the PTC's. My one concern is whether the 6 car PTC trains will run slower than the 7's would.

And some video of the TL testing:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=393945784297

How do you like that. I come up with a carefully crafted explanation of why they might have difficulty running a Raven train on the Voyage, and less than twelve hours later they announce that they'll be doing exactly that.

Shows how much I really know, doesn't it?! :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Now we saw them testing beta TL cars on Raven (or was it Legend).

So did they test with those cars on Voyage or was that not possible?

What was the test on the other coaster to show and if not on Voyage track why not?

^^ It made sense too. I believed you Dave. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lpc8L77qkA&feature=player_embedded#!

Raven train to run as second train on Voyage untill Timberliners are ready to boost capacity starting this weekend, at least thru memorial day weekend

I also want to thank Will and HW's staff for taking the measures necessary (There are many! Watch the video that explains everything in how a PTC and most trains other than the timberliners and MF's work.

Kudos, See you at HWN