There's never been a hotel there BEFORE....

RCMAC said:

Well, I'll be darned, and ya learn something new everyday. Here, I always thought Joe Frigidaire invented the air conditioner. Thanks for that (one) little fact, billb!

That's where the Carrier name comes from, and why Syracuse plays in the Carrier dome. That's where he started the company.

Really? Well, once again, who knew? From now on when I think Syracuse I'm gonna think air conditioning. Even in the dead of a bitter cold winter with nine feet of snow. Air conditioning! The one thing those Syracusians needed to keep em outta the Poconos. Or Philly. Or Seaside, was it? Oh, I dunno...

Poconos? That brings up another point. The Poconos is already a popular vacation spot for NY'ers being 90 or so miles due east of Manhattan, all interstate (Junior Mints episode of Seinfeld anyone?)

There's another travel pattern you'd have to reverse to get them down to a GWL here to keep the thing afloat in the winter. I'd choose the NJ one just based on proximity, unless I was tacking it on to a ski vacation then I'd still go to the Poconos one.

Actually, I'm at the point where I wouldn't go to either, as my kids are getting old for that... I'd probably just take them to Sahara Sams for the day LOL.

Cleverbot? Is that you?

I think your AI is broken...

I would argue that your ticket guarantees you admission to the venue, AND access to the attractions inside. $40+ to walk around Cedar Point but not touch anything seems at odds with the advertising materials.

Yes, that opens up a can of worms based on which attractions are open/which players are playing, but just as you have a right to hear Paul McCartney at a Paul McCartney concert, the marketing materials strongly imply that you get to ride some rides and see some shows.

(Weather is a "you pays you $$$ and you takes you chances" risk)

I tend to agree with that to a degree.

But like I said, you reach a point where you start to argue shades of grey:

Captain Hawkeye said:

...the marketing materials strongly imply that you get to ride some rides and see some shows.

And no matter how crowded the day is, you do. But how many (or few) before it's acceptable (or unacceptable)?

I say the second you pass throught he gate and have access to the rides, the contract implied by the admission ticket is met.

Yes, but then one could throw it back into the gray area by arguing that if everything has a two-hour wait and you can't possibly get everything in in a day, do you really have access to all the rides?

It's a reach, but it's a heck of a lot better than my ill-conceived Paul McCartney and Orioles analogies.

Well, exactly. It's not a black and white thing.

And yes, you had access to all the rides. You made the choice to ride the specific rides you did.

On that same note, I couldn't possibly do everything at any decently sized park on even the least busy of days, but I certainly had access to it all. Yet somehow that's not a problem anyone seems to bitch about.

In a weird sort of way, we see it as a good thing. Disney has created a complex of four incredibly deep theme parks. People spend a week at a time there and still feel like they didn't 'do it all' and proclaim that they can't wait to go back - not that they didn't get their money's worth or what was promised to them.

These companies offer access to the playground. There are tons of variables - heck, two people in the park at the same times on the same day will get totally different experiences out of their visit.

I just don't think there's any implication or guarantee of exactly what you'll choose to do inside the park.

Justin, what if one were to flip the argument around? If paying x dollars only permits you the chance to ride 3 or 4 marquee attractions out of 12 or 15 or 20, would it be more fair to pay the same x dollars and only have 4 marquee attractions in the park?

Crap. I wish I had thought of that.

That's okay. You can quote me eight years from now.

Well, hence the whole gray area side of things. It was leading back to the you-should-at-least-be-able-to-do-x-number-of-rides argument, for which there's no real value for x.

I just think that if there is a point where a crowd becomes so big that an even remotely reasonable experience can't be offered to each guest, either the park is underpricing or it needs to re-think it's maximum capacity level. Again, though, it is, as you said, a gray area, because it's so hard to quantify what that reasonable experience is.

Although, if people in Philly and New York are so eager to not be near each other, one wonders how Six Flags Great Adventure has been even remotely successful.

Edit: Mike, you just wrinkled my brain. Well-played. To that point, though, I would counter with this: that x number of dollars doesn't change based on crowds, so I could argue that they're either undercharging me on days where I get fifty rides without even trying or they're overcharging me on days where I only get those four rides. Hence my support of dynamic pricing.

sirloindude said:

I just think that if there is a point where a crowd becomes so big that an even remotely reasonable experience can't be offered to each guest, either the park is underpricing or it needs to re-think it's maximum capacity level.

I totally agree with this. But it seems any given park's idea of 'remotely reasonable experience' is different from the "I couldn't ride everything" crowd's.

Again, grey area. :)

I'm admittedly low on sympathy though. I flat-out don't understand who the people are that subject themselves to mid-summer weekend crowds at amusement parks. You kinda have to understand what you're walking in to, I would think.

EDIT - Because you edited while I was typing...

Dynamic Pricing fixes things. But so does playing your own hand. In a perverse sort of way, as a customer I'd rather beat the system and continue to time my visits so that I get a lot for my money rather than have the parks use Dynmaic pricing to level the playing field across the board.

sirloindude said:

Edit: Mike, you just wrinkled my brain.

My pleasure. :)

Oh, Gonch, I completely agree with you. I very much try to time my visits to parks based on forecasted crowd levels and it's because of that that some parks known for being massively crowded throughout much of the summer are places I only visit during the Spring or in September. I just think that when the brunt of the season becomes hyper-crowded, such as Cedar Point was when I went on a Monday or Tuesday in August, it's maybe time to start thinking about upping the price. I'm not saying that it should be upped to the point where it becomes a ghost town, but I do think there's a happy medium where maybe only a small number of rides get exorbitant crowds and the rest are pretty reasonable. It's when the Corkscrews and Skull Mountains are pulling hour and a half waits that maybe you're not hitting wallets hard enough at the gates.

Now, if we were talking about Kings Dominion where it seems it only gets crowded on weekends, that's where I think that it can more easily be chalked up to timing.

Lord Gonchar said:

I flat-out don't understand who the people are that subject themselves to mid-summer weekend crowds at amusement parks. You kinda have to understand what you're walking in to, I would think.

Given that the same people do that very same thing once a year, on a weekend day during midsummer, you would expect them to learn. Since they wouldn't, couldn't, or didn't....Fastpass, QuickQueue, Qbot, FastLane filled a very profitable need/market.

Well, you know, there's an even better and easier answer than dynamic pricing.

Pay-Per-Ride

Sometimes we act like POP admission has been around forever and that's simply not true. PPR was around much longer...and given we're having these discussions about upcharge perks and dynamic pricing, maybe it's not long to stick around.

I get that the large parks would have a buttload of overhead and effort to handle a PPR system. Although I suppose that could be an argument for using new technology (RFID, smartpohones, whatever) to do old things in new ways.

My point being, with PPR, you get what you pay for. Plain and simple. If the park is so crowded that you can only get on 4 rides during your visit, you pay for just those 4 rides.

I can't think of anything fairer than that. It removes the variables from the equation.

Granted, IB and Fun Spot aren't Disney or even SFGA (either) style busy, but they do fine with scanners and wristbands. Mom and Dad come in the park, throw a couple hundred bucks on their family's four wristbands (linked to one CC transaction) and they put food, drinks, rides and games on the bands. Once they get to a predetermined limit (say, 25.00), Dad can use his smartphone to add more money, or he can tell the kids to grab their funnel cakes and meet back at the car.

Although, if people in Philly and New York are so eager to not be near each other, one wonders how Six Flags Great Adventure has been even remotely successful.

Because it's typically somewhere you drag your kids for the day and deal with it. What you wont find are a large segment of people from the Philly area vacationing somewhere above 195 (exit 7a NJTP) they travel to AC and points south... OC, Sea Isle, Wildwood, Cape May...

Morey's does both.. you can get like a debit card in leiu of the old tickets, or a wristband for POP admission.. the turnstile wont move until you scan your card or wristband.