Theory on CCI "woodies poll" dominance
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
What I was trying to say was that Magnum is deserving of its spot, I do think Villian and TT aren't as good as Legend and Raven (by leagues), that Hersheypark isn't as much a "goto" because it doesn't have HW's coasters, etc.
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Alan
Jeff said:
Actually, I think more than location, quantity is the big influence for the CCI rides.
I think you're on the right track, but what I'm thinking is that its not just pure quantity, but quantity compared to what all the other wooden designers have done. Look at it this way, once you get past CCI, GCI, and Dinn/Summers, everything is completely fragemented. You have a few from Intamin, a couple from Coasterworks, a couple from Bill Cobb here, a couple in house operations there, but no other modern desginers with so much quality product. So, even if GCI built the best coasters hands down on the planet, and all of their coasters were in the major polls' top tens, the rest of the list would still be dominated by CCI anyways. Its not like steel coasters where Intamin, B&M, Arrow, and Vekoma have all put out tons and tons of rides.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 11/6/2002. ***
The argument of quantity is flawed.
The more coasters in CCI's portfolio actually hurts their average rankings, making the statement of quantity being the reasoning behind higher rankings naive and rather presumptuous. The quantity of CCI's, because of the varied types (junior, dark ride) and location requirements means that not every coaster they make can be like Shivering Timbers.
Average ranking finds GCI with a higher average (36.57 compared to CCI's 40.13). Put another way -- Quantity actually hurts CCI in the rankings.
So, why then is the top 20 list dominated with CCI's (13 out of 20) if on average they build a lower ranked coaster?
Median ranking is a much better measurement stick here, and CCI wins hands down (27.5 compared to GCI's 37). Median rankings are better comparisons of two sets of data where one set vastly outnumbers the other set.
CCI has coasters that are ranked very high, and some that aren't ranked very high. GCI's all come in about the same. I guess that means that GCI makes a more homogeneous ride (read: conservative design, not taking a risk), while CCI makes a far more diverse collection of rides that find some of them tops (read: taking risks when challenged).
This could be further explained by the number of designers who engineered coasters for CCI (7?) vs. GCI (2?), plus the aforementioned types watering down the average for CCI. A coaster like Zach's Zoomer coming in at 153 really drags down the average for CCI, even though this is an outstanding junior coaster. Nothing like this exists for GCI watering down their average -- another reason why median is a better measurement.
I think the data shows that more often CCI builds a higher rated ride than GCI does, answering the post "Theory on CCI woodies poll dominance."
CCI took the design to the bleeding edge on many occasions, creating outsanding and well regarded rides. GCI does not take any of their designs to the edge, resulting in a predictable and lackluster, average ride. Plain and Simple.
Another interesting tidbit: Two of CCI's lowest rated rides were designed by Mike Boodley, before he went on to create GCI.
All numbers came from Mitch Hawker's 2001 Wood Coaster poll results:
http://www.geocities.com/wcoasterpoll/wcprs01.htm
Lastly, I'm very surprised anyone would list SFA's Roar as better than most of the CCI's they've been on. Then again, if his track record is up-to-date, he's only been on 4 CCI's out of 34, one of which is a junior. Maybe you guys who so matter of factly assert statements like that should add disclaimers to your posts.
And the funny thing about Zachs Zoomer is, it is my favorite JR. And it still ranks among the bottom of my wood list solely on the merit it is not the type of coaster that I would travel to ride.
There are alot of GOOD coasters that finish far down the list, Out of all 63 woodies I have ridden, There are only two I really have no desire to ride again. Herc and American Eagle.
Chuck, who says because it's not in my top 40 doesn't mean he don't like it.
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
*** This post was edited by Charles Nungester on 11/6/2002. ***
Now *others* have claimed that HW is only liked because of The Legend and Raven. But that was not me. I would not dare make such a claim.
And RG: Please do not believe that I take things so personally. C'mon, I'm like the ONLY one here who would admit to having Hercules in a top ten list. Have my actions *really* reflected that I am "so attentive" to the polls that it influences what I like and dont like to ride? If you've gotten that impression of me, then I really dont know how. But let me just say, "on the record", that I am just making conversation.
And you ask "Who cares why somebody would rank one ride over the other?" The honest answer is I CARE DAMNIT. If I didnt, I would not have made a topic about it. If you dont, feel free to move on. But I am always curious as to the "whys" as much as the "Whats". I like to analyze peoples behavior; especially the aggregate behavior of special sub-groups.
And this goes out as a general disclaimer. If you disagree with me, fine! State your points. At worst, we can agree to disagree. If you feel my topic is uninteresting to you, just ignore it and move on, my feelings will not be hurt. But , please, I beg you, do NOT trivialize/patronize/ or condescend me by saying "Who Cares?" Just because *YOU* may not care does not mean that *nobody* cares. That is so rude and it happens so often here. If you really think no one cares, Shut the F&*K up and let it fade into obscurity. But the simple fact that it exists shows that SOMEONE cares.
Arrogant Butt-Nuggets :)
lata, jeremy
--who is sure someone will try and connect him with the TON (TM Cplaya)
i just had to say....props Jeremy for stickin up for your post man....makes me proud to call ya friend!! :) im gonna go along with the Hostyl one as well...i think the location of a ride has A LOT to do with a coaster's standing in an enthusiasts top ten. and the overall park even. And, i wanna also back up Jeremy's statement about people caring about what ride is ranked over what.....we are enthusiasts, and this is our hobby, its what we do with our spare time. for some of us, we like to compare coasters, talk about why we might prefer one over the other. we arent doing "favourite" posts, we simply like having the opportunity to state our own mind. personally i feel that Jeremy's post was quite informative, and gave excellent opportunity for debate. however, the slinging of mud and the slander of another's opinion is obsurd, and if you feel the need to do such, do it elsewhere. we should respect each other's opinions...i mean as fellow enthusiasts, we understand each other and can relate under our common interest...so stop being babies ;)
Tim.....who, unlike the infamous Chuck, does NOT enjoy getting fired up, and feels that a lot of people on this site really need to grow up.
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Holiday World; Knoebel's-today's cures for today's common theme park :-D
Legend...who would have thought that a tree could be turned into such madness :-D
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Holiday World; Knoebel's-today's cures for today's common theme park :-D
Legend...who would have thought that a tree could be turned into such madness :-D
2Hostyl said:
As much as you all try to deny it, HW is so highly regared NOT just because of the coasters..... Even enthusiasts who claimed The Legend was painful and "didnt have any airtime" would *STILL* rank it in their top tens. Why? If the coaster *really* wasnt to your liking why? It goes back to them being in love with the park.
OK, Hostyl, for being Coasterbuzz's "only Hercules fan," how can you even attempt to intelligently respond to any wooden rollercoaster topic??? (and that's a joke.....although it is a bit humorous.....)
I think your theory sounds good, and I think your points were well intentioned, but I think you've fallen off the wagon - especially with your Legend comparison. How many enthusiasts identify that they are in love with Cedar Point (like me?)? Yet you don't see them ranking Mean Streak in their top ten.....there was a pretty lengthy "Can Mean Streak Be Saved?" bit on this site not too long ago that made MS's unpopularity abundantly clear....there was even talk of setting it aflame for Lake Erie's biggest bonfire.
Also, I don't buy the "Holiday World would still be highly regarded without its coasters" bit, either - you can bet your bottom dollar that die-hard enthusiasts aren't going to trek all the way to southern Indiana just for the free sodas.
Just my $.02, as they say......
*** This post was edited by ophthodoc on 11/6/2002. ***
IMO I believe GCI's are not the better of the two. CCI's Are just better rides. Simple As That. Just because they aren't in corporate parks just make them better. I for one am sick of seeing cyclone carbon copies at six flags parks.(Viper+Georgia Cyclone are my exceptions) CCI Delivers more originality and more fast paced, out of control rides.
I'm getting into this thread a little late, but I disagree with most that GCIs are not intense, pansy coasters, weak, etc. I've been on all but one (Roar East) and besides LR, none seemed that "weak." I mean, Wildcat ripped through its track.
I still go by my theory that if a certain coaster doesn't have a perfect amount of airtime, a perfect amount of laterals, a perfect amount of tunnels, a perfect amount of headchoppers, a perfect amount of blah blah blah, and no trim brakes, they will dislike it.
And for the record, I hate Montu's midcourse. :(
Oh, and I've only been one one CCI, so I'd love to get on more. New Mexico Rattler is calling my name...
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TOGO!
Tim.....who, unlike the infamous Chuck, does NOT enjoy getting fired up, and feels that a lot of people on this site really need to grow up.
and one more thing....Chuck....Im willing to bet that the park home for Hercules has little to do with its trims....i rode Herc, and the trims were barely on...im not going to get into another Herc flamefest, i just very much disagree that if Herc were at HW it would run any better.
Well Tim, You got some nerve. If you read my post reply to Jeremy, you would have noticed the smilies ect. that indicated that it just stirred my interest and ablitlity to dissagree.
It's a disscussion board, And if you can't respectfully dissagree or share your disscussion then why do it?
I have met Jeremy, I do not know him personally but upon meeting him, I know he is a person I could have fun around.
Chuck, who is not going there but thinks you should follow your own advice.
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
*** This post was edited by Charles Nungester on 11/6/2002. ***
2Hostyl said:And RG: Please do not believe that I take things so personally.
lol, dude, you're looking way to far into this. I said what I said, why look so inently into the polls? Why care so much why someone would put the Legend into their top ten, even if it was just to be just one more sheep in the flock? I'm not condescending you, I'm not trivializing your statement, and I don't think I'm personally attacking you. Jiminiy Christmas, you'd think I said something about your mother or something. I still think your theory is wrong, and lots of people here other than me have explained why. I love GCI's, I love CCI's, but trying to objectify your own personally subjective opinion in the coaster world, where everything is subjective anyways...you're gonna fall flat on your face.
And the notion that just because I'm disagreeing here with somebody dosen't mean that I don't respect his opinion, or that I'm slinging mud, or that I'm being an ass. I'm simply disagreeing, and that has nothing to do with respect. I disagree with our country's own president on just about every opinion he has, but I still respect him.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Damnit, the thoughts are coming faster than I can type. Lets think about this - even if The Raven WERE only ranked high because it is at HW, what if Maggie WERE ranked high only because it is at CP, and what if CCI's WERE ranked high only because many of them where at our sweetheart parks? Hell, what if everybody here voted for a coaster based soley on how much they like the park is it contained by? I say, if any of that were true- would there be anything wrong with it?
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 11/7/2002. ***
(Darienlakefan, after all the lip I've seen about Viper being underrated. When someone comes and asks what coaster are underrated, and within 2 days there are 29 responses saying Viper @ SFGAm is underrated, it is really hard to believe anymore. Why don't the thirty of you all agree that it is you all love it because Viper is one of the most talked about and supported woodies on the buzz.)
Let me tell you something I have ridden this coaster before, I'am not talking from a bandwagon's POV but from an actual exp from the ride. So that's all I have to say about that.
By the way I would like to elect 2hostyl for President. His views were valid from were I stand and I think he has a good point.
I don't go around posting opinions at every given chance.
I think you totally went left field with the comments that were made I'am not trying to start a flaming war, just opinions.
HP is a park I would spend a day at again for sure!
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Someone Who Hopes Their Homepark wakes up and smells the coffee!
I'm getting into this thread after lurking for a while. I think what it boils down to is this:
Some people will rank coasters according to Jeremey's theory, some won't.
Its as simple as that. No use arguing over it.
Moosh
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Coaster & Amusement Park Christmas cards, clothing, gifts, and stocking suffers, now available here.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Personally, I rank DBH pretty high, and I don't *think* anyone's gonna claim that it's because of its location. Like 'Moosh said, some will, some won't. I really DO try when ranking COASTERS to take only the ride into account. Gwazi, for instance, is hurt in MY rankings more from the lack of good maintenance (again, IMO) than it is by the HORRENDOUS ops....
The best part about having a LARGE sample size is that "quirks" in individual's ratings systems will *tend* to "come out in the wash".
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