Theory on CCI "woodies poll" dominance
I also think the "location" thing doesn't work on another level, now that I think about it. Most enthusiasts live in the Ohio/PA area, not Kentucky or Southern Indiana. And Hersheypark certainly isn't SFKK. Its a well regarded and oft visted park by enthusiasts. If LR or WC were at, say SFEG, I think you'd have a better argument.
-who'd like to note that the 4 consensus "best" coasters of the 70s/80s were at some of the lowest regarded parks-
Alan
You have it backwards.
The great coaster makes the park great, not the great park making the coaster great.
A park has to build a great coaster before any enthusiast will take notice. Even with a great ride, the park still has to be a special place to become a favorite park. Look at Michigan's Adventure or Visionland for examples of how one great coaster does not a great park make. Likewise, I don't see many people claiming that Mean Streak is a great coaster even though it is at a favorite park amongst enthusiasts.
Nobody would be in love with Holiday World without two world class woodies. Same can be said for Silverwood. Enthusiasts wouldn't even know those parks existed!
How do you explain enthusiast's love affair with Thunder Run at SFKK when there is so much disdain for that park?
Even Knoebels can't ride its reputation as an enthusiast favorite with regards to Twister -- most enthusiasts don't like it too much. Rightfully so, because it's not a great ride.
I can't even believe this theory was made and validated by anyone, as it is that ridiculous.
I've been on every GCI, and I've been on most of CCI's coasters. They can't even compare. GCI builds beautiful structures that produce largely uneventful experiences. CCI hardly ever missed the mark with the formula that makes us enthusiasts in the first place: pacing, airtime, laterals, and surprise.
I don't have one GCI in my top 30 wood and that doesn't have a lick to do with where the coasters are located. I like Hershey and BGT better than a good amount of parks that host my top 30, but those rides just can't hold a candle to the Tremors, Ghostriders, MegaZephs, and Shivering Timbers of the world.
I know the answer to "CCI's dominance in polls" is that they produced a better ride experience. Period.
As an enthusiast, I don't give two ****s about what each company charged and which ride holds up better. I want the designers behind my favorite coasters to keep designing. If the only wood to get built in the next five years is from GCI or S&S, I need to look for a new hobby.
*** This post was edited by _the_dude_ on 11/5/2002. ***
Not so coincidentally, 3 of those coasters are also CCI's. Would *I* place the GCI's I've ridden (Hershey Wildcat, the Lightning Racers, the Gwazi's, and SFA's Roar) higher if they were at other parks? Possibly, but probably not. I love Hershey, so it doesn't get penalized for NOT being a mecca. BGT's operations on Gwazi were pretty bad the day I was there, which left a negative impression, while I ADORE Roar (#16, damn good placement considering I have 57 woodies on my poll this year)
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--Oat Boy
My page
*** This post was edited by GregLeg on 11/5/2002. ***
Ted
Most of those fond parks weren't sweethearts before they got CCIs.
CCI put Holiday World, Michigan's Adventure, Indiana Beach, and Silverwood on the map. Cornball, for instance, makes Indiana Beach a much better park and Shivering Timbers makes Michigan's Adventure. MiAdv is a park with little other eye-candy to distract you. ;)
Hershey, it should be noted, is also a 'favorite son' park.
Construction-wise, GCI is better. No debate.
Enthusiast/poll-wise, CCI is better. No debate.
That said, the GP matter. They seem to love CCIs. How many parks have sene attendance boom after a CCI? They come off cheering/terrified. Apparently, outside of Lightning Racer, GCIs don't inspire the same enthusiasm.
So who's better?
Whoever just said Twister isn't a good ride and not well regarded is nuts. It made the top 25, somone muct like it. The only coaster that comes close to its air and laterals is The Legend. Heck I belive its the best coaster at Knoebel's and is my number one woodie, of course Phoenix is my number two so thee ya go ;).
I really think the CCI love affair comes from the fact that most enthusiasts are Airtime Whores plus the fact that CCI throws in some great laterals as well.
WOuld TImbers be as amazing as it is without the helix?
Lightning Racer wins on sheer fun alone. Wildcat has some great laterals but not really any air to speak of.
Location really has nothing to do with it. Two of the parks which are out in the middle of no where have 3 of the greatest coasters on the planet, all CCI's. Raven, Legend, and Cornball.
On the same note Hershey is in a huge population center and is a huge park with two (or three) GCI's. yet they are ranked lower and frankly don't touch the three affrmentioned rides.
CCI proved they could make some great twisting layouts like Cornball that combined massive ai and amazing laterals. GCI just has never cam up with a combination like that. They have lats but very little air.
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Coming in 2003
The Spawn Of Magnum!
I was the last non employee through Maggie's turnstile this year. Woo Hoo.
I agree with the point about B&M and Intamin. GCI are like B&M, and CCI is like Intamin. The reason I enjoy Lightning Racer so much ( My personal favorite wooden coaster) is because just how smooth it is. I still get the feeling of being out of control while riding without getting banged up. Wildcat on the other hand I have to ride in the front seat or its too rough to me. Who ever said that it doesn't have any lateral G's is crazy. Its still a great coaster. Its all in the design. I enjoy looking at a GCI just as much as riding it. They are masterpieces.
CCI on the other hand are just as enjoyable. I have yet to visit Holiday World. That will change this coming season. I found Shivering Timbers to be a wonderful ride with exellent airtime. Thats my #2 wooden coaster. I really enjoy the first 2 drops of Great White, but its boring after that. To me they just as eye pleasing to look at.
At the same time GCI's are smooth, and graceful like a B&M, and CCI's are wild and out of control like an Intamin. As an enthusiest I'll ride any coaster, and I don't have a preference to who the designer is. If its a good ride i'll ride again and again. My #1 coaster is that Intamin at CP that causes much debate, and close behind is that B&M Hyper at Gr8 Adv. Its just a matter of personal preference, and I happen to be part of the minority.
...wondering if now that the "underpriced" CCI's are no more, perhaps GCI will have an opportunity to develop more of a "repertoire" and show a few different styles of rides. I personally find them to be FUN, if not as intense...(well, save for HP's Wildcat in the back row...;)...where ARE those TR's anyway, lol). Gwazi, LR, Roar, DO have airtime, and I love being thrown "up and out". Roar especially is an amazing ride when it's running nice. But I'd really like to see a GCI out-n-back that really delivers some "vertical air"....some really different layouts, some use of terrain, etc.
I don't really think it holds water.
How many people who have ridden SFNE's S:ROS and say it is their favorite steel coaster?
A hell of a lot.
How many people who have been to SFNE have said its their favorite park. Hell, how many people really like SFNE to begin with?
See my point? Just about all supposedly under-par parks (and please, SFNE fanboys, lay off, I'm just using it as an example) have at least one highly revered coaster, and S:ROS is SFNE's.
I have a hard time believing that HW is our "sweetheart park" and that we simply like the coasters there more because of it. Its the other way around, HW is our "sweetheart park" BECAUSE of the coasters, first and foremost, I would think. If Raven and Legend weren't there, no matter how friendly the staff was, no matter how clean the park was, nobody here would care, as much as they do.
Lightning Racer is some of the most fun I have ever had on a coaster, but with every ride on Raven, Legend, Boss, Shivering Timbers, Rampage, Ghostrider, Villian, (the list goes on and on!) it should be pretty obvious why so many of us are CCI whores. The airtime on most is 100% insane, the laterals are brutal, the pacing is near perfect so much of the time....CCI built what we wanted. Trying to pass that off on some kind of bias is just lame to me. Getting a night ride on Lightning racer, and then one on Legend - I don't see how you could attribute the difference in opinion on the two different parks.
The Raven is probably my all time fav coaster. I love it at Holiday World, but if it were anywhere else, we would still love it. Who cares why we love it? Just ride it.
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
Ted: there is no "fact" that most CCIs are better than GCIs. If you hold that "opinion" fine. But dont try and pass it off as "fact".
And *SEVERAL* of you all have missed the whole "location" bit. It has nothing to do with state/city but to deal with which "PARK" the ride is in.
As much as you all try to deny it, HW is so highly regared NOT just because of the coasters. I am truely convinced that the domineering opinions of the "traditional/woodie snob enthusiasts" have inflated the ranks of a great deal of CCIs. For evidence, I even point to the rankings of the CCI coasters themselves. Twisted Twins, BOSS and Villian consistantly lag behind there smaller park brethren. Even elicited remarks like "crap", "rough", "painful", "sucks". Are they *really* that inferior to the other CCIs? As far as pain goes, I've *yet* to run into one more painful than The Legend (w/ G trains). Even enthusiasts who claimed The Legend was painful and "didnt have any airtime" would *STILL* rank it in their top tens. Why? If the coaster *really* wasnt to your liking why? It goes back to them being in love with the park.
Regarding HERSHEYPARK's "sweetheart" status, HP is regarded better than the Six Flags chain around here, but it isn't EVEN up to the level of KennyWood, let alone Holiday World and Knoebel's. Look back at the thread of the cat from Great Brittan who was making an Ohio trip. Look at the number of people who said HP was not necessary to visit, but HW was a MUST visit. I am not making this stuff up. Read around on the boards. You all will see the exact sentiment that I am bringing to the fore.
On the subject of steel coasters, that was a nice comparison to bring up with the S:ROS @ SFNE thing. I could cop out and say that is the exception that proves the rule. There is basis for that as it has been discussed time and time again about the supposed "inferiority" of Magnum XL-200, yet it just *keeps* hanging on in the polls. And guess what? It to is at an enthusiast "Sweethart Park". But instead, I will simply point out that the traditional/small parks dont specialize in large scale steel coasters. The one "sort-of" small park that had one of these was KP with SteelPhantom'sRevenge. And *zoinks* THAT TOO has been rated high on lists.
But hey, I dont expect you all to agree with me. After, I'm just a lowly member of the "GP" anyway.
later days,
jeremy
--who if it wasnt for SRM would turn in his club card
Having only ridden Lion and Tiger, I don't feel qualified to make a statement on the quality of the GCI coasters.
However, as far as Twisted Twins/Villain V. Legend/Raven...come on, Jeremy. Twisted Twins may have been a good ride at some point, but I rode it on SRM Saturday this year, and both sides were painful and squeaky. Absolutely no comparison to the coasters at HW, and this is coming from someone who had never been to either HW or SFKK prior. Fate and lightning led to me only riding Villain once this year, but it's a shadow of its former self. When I rode it in 2000, I proclaimed it to be the best woodie in the state. Now, it's not even the best at SFWoA.
I have to think that these differences are due to maintenance. Perhaps if SFWoA and SFKK put the same kind of effort into maintenance that HW does, then we wouldn't have such a disparity.
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http://www.rockandrollconfidential.com
*** This post was edited by Mark W. Baruth on 11/6/2002. ***
2Hostyl said:
Well for someone who doesnt care, ravenguy, you sure have a lot to say!
C'mon, don't take me out of context, I said "Who cares why we love it?" I didn't say I didn't care about the topic.
What I see is that you like GCI's more than CCI's, and most people here are going to like CCI's a lot more, and you're trying to objectify it, when its all a completely subjective opinion.
If somebody puts Legend in their top 10, and didn't really enjoy it, that's not a problem of mine. I get off Lightning Racer, I think its a fantastic ride. I get off Raven, Legend, Boss, Ghostrider, Shivering Timbers, Rampage, and I think its one of the best coasters I've ever ridden, period. Magnum is still the best steel coaster I've ever ridden, IMO, but that's not because its at Cedar Point. Its just because I think its all around the best. In these forums, you get a lot of people that will bash Maggie, you got a lot of people that love her, but just remember that there is a large silent majority that doesn't say anything one way or the other on Maggie, until they go to the polls. The people who post on this one board doesn't represent the entire community, and really doesn't come anywhere close.
I think you're theory is just 100% wrong, that's all. Once again, who cares why somebody would rank one ride over the other, even if it were because they just like the park? If I really like GCI's more than CCI's, I would just enjoy them for my own personal reasons, and not try to justify my opinion by figuring up some half hammed theory that CCI's are so acclaimed because many end up in smaller parks.
What's wrong with just genuinely liking CCI's? Or just genuinely like any designers coasters, for that matter? Why be so attentive to what the polls say, anyways? Be your own poll, like what you like, ride what you want to ride.
Matt - who is 100% proud to be a woodie snob - Robinson
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If the shoe fits, find another one.
*** This post was edited by ravenguy98 on 11/6/2002. ***
Ok Jeremy, Im fired up now
So what if we like HW? Seems every post you make compares HW to something?
You make a point of nobody would notice HW if they didn't have two good/great woodies? I can tell you for a fact that is false. Lot's noticed when they had only one.
Now for you point would HW be noticed without the coasters? Probably not, And why? Because it was mainly a Christmas themed park with a gearing to families with small kids.
Raven alone would be enough to draw me to visit again and again but yes My feelings are a little deeper for HW than for some other parks. 1 this park wasn't CP with the capital to build about any darn thing they wanted, and 2. If you did your research you would know what a huge risk/chance that the Koch family made to build Raven in the first place. Not to mention this park makes you feel welcome, no matter who you are, what your background ect. And they still shake your hand at the exit. (Not just enthusiast)
Yes, The coaster or rides make the park.
Villain makes my top 5 on ride alone when it's running right. I said it before that I have had a couple not so good rides on it where it didn't deliever what it's capable of. But on ride alone when it is running right, the latterals and airtime are insane if not thrilling despite having to wait a hour and a half for one train op and empty fast lane seats
Boss, to me kicked arse. This ride was just insane for the first half and still thrilling and good the second half. If you think legend was painful with the G train don't ride the backseat as it will toss your ribs into the sideboard on that little bunny hill after the second drop. I loved it, It was kind of a shock and didn't really hurt you as legend didn't with the G. Im just sick of people whining about a couple of thigh bruises. Go ride GA Cyclone ten times and tell me your not bruised. I got video clips of people showing their GA Cyclone bruises and saying they loved it and those are standard ratchet bar/divider trains.
Chuck, who likes to be fired up by Jeremy sometimes. How bout a SRM ride sometime
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Charles Nungester.
Is it about coasters or friends? I say both!
*** This post was edited by Charles Nungester on 11/6/2002. ***
I'll play along.
Actually, I think more than location, quantity is the big influence for the CCI rides. There are just more of them, and I suppose like M&M's, you like them more if you eat more of them.
I don't generally like to rank rides, but the only CCI I've been on so far that I liked better than Roar at SFA is Legend.
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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"There's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, when it's all in your mind. You gotta let go." - Ghetto, Supreme Beings of Leisure
Quantity? Nah. I've been on a lot of S-D contraptions, but don't find myself ranking them higher and higher as I ride more of them.
Although this may explain a certain someone's love of Hercules...
Is that the next thread? 'If Hercules was at HW then all you cry babies would love it!'? ;)
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sonic life
A) Magnum, while still rough, is a good coaster with lots of sharp airtime. If those people want to, they can vote it down when Mitch does his steel poll.
B) Phantom's Revenge is my #3 not because its at KW, but because its the most intense hyper experience there is, period. Its the Raven of steel coastering.
I'll also bring up the point Ted made before...Mitch's Poll IS NOT a popularity contest, and if it was, TDZ wouldn't have won each of the last 3 years.
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Alan
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