Theme parks cost cutting = lower quality experience

Change for the better? For whose betterment? The patrons? Obviously not.

It's always the almighty dollar. I understand how businesses work, I just wish not everything was for sale for the sake of a better return for the stockholder.

There are successful businesses out there that choose to not make every possible penny that they can in order to ensure customer satisfaction, unfortunately most of these are now smaller, family run enterprises. Still, it's were I prefer to spend my money no matter what business they are in.

edit - Regarding Kennywood's policy. I think it's great and I wouldn't mind if every park did it this way. Meeting the demands of the people that show up that day, how is that bad?

If it was a bad move to stay open late, just in case the crowds justify it, then it's equally bad to close early since they assume the crowds won't justify being open. IMO Kennywood has the perfect solution to this quandry. *** Edited 4/24/2007 12:57:24 AM UTC by Incidentalist***

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Regarding Kennywood's policy. I think it's great and I wouldn't mind if every park did it this way.

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That's what these other parks ARE doing. They're saying it doesn't make sense to stay open later.

The same way Kennywood does on nights they close early.

The difference is the other parks tell me up front what I'm paying for, where KW can't guarentee me a thing. If the park is crowded you'll get a 'better value' and later hours, but if it doesn't make sense for us to stay open, then you're screwed - get out!

I guess it goes back to something I alluded to in one of the countless SF or Q-bot or free drinks threads - people just seem to like being smoothed over. If a park just makes their intentions obvious and upfront then that's a bad thing, but if they play PR control and spin it to look like they're doing it for reasons other than money, then it's ok.

I'd still rather not buy into the lie.

Here it is side by side:

This thread (summarized): "Parks are closing early because crowd conditions don't warrant staying open" - and that's cause for bitchfest 2007.

The KW site (paraphrased): "Closing times depend on crowd conditions" - and that's a good thing.

And I get accused of favortism towards a certain kind of park. (still need the rolleyes smiley)

*** Edited 4/24/2007 1:13:41 AM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

It isn't the same thing.

First of all Kennywood tells you their policy upfront, if you choose to look for it. Nothing smoothed over about it, lots of people = stay open longer, few people = close earlier. They also give you 10pm as a benchmark.

This makes the most sense from a business standpoint. Obviously the parks who are closing earlier looked at the numbers.

Do you honestly believe that the numbers show that they are losing money every night they stay open late? If they are choosing the close earlier then it obviously means that the numbers show that more often than not they aren't meeting their requirements to stay open. I'd be shocked if they didn't show some nights where it was profitable to stay open. They just can't predict what nights will be the best.

That's where KW's idea is best from a business standpoint. They 'look at the numbers' daily and should therefore make the maximum profit each day.

These other parks are losing less money by closing earlier but also losing some potentially good nights.

In the end, KW's policy isn't changing this year, is it? Isn't that what this is all about? Change, whether good or bad causes an uproar.

One last point. I'm no KW fanboy. I've been once for a few hours and didn't like the Potato Patch Fries.

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That's where KW's idea is best from a business standpoint. They 'look at the numbers' daily and should therefore make the maximum profit each day.

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Agreed. But I flipped it to the POV of the customer. Devil's advocate if you will. :)

No one has ever bitched that they got pushed out of KW early because it didn't make business sense to stay open late, so why is it a problem if other parks start doing it? That's the core point I wanted to hit with the KW example.

"Change for the better? For whose betterment? The patrons? Obviously not."

What's good for the park could be good for patrons. If the park is cutting the cost of labor and gross profits increase, that could mean a more concentrated labor force during the day (ride ops, bathroom cleaners, food vendors) or new rides, or general park improvements. You can chose to be pessimistic or optimistic about it but parks that don't make money (or, in the case of SF, get rid of their debt) don't get better.

"First of all Kennywood tells you their policy upfront, if you choose to look for it. Nothing smoothed over about it, lots of people = stay open longer, few people = close earlier. They also give you 10pm as a benchmark."

I don't get it. Kennywood tells you upfront they don't know when they're closing.

These other parks tell you exactly when their closing, earlier or later than past years or not.

Which one is being more upfront again?

I guess it goes back to what one's used to. Whether that be for the last 5 years or beyond.

We've grown accustomed to the late nights. You say the change is for the better of the park. As a typical customer, I could care less about what is best for the park as long as it isn't forced to shut down. I care about what's best for me.

KW doesn't affend me as much as they're basically telling me that if it's profitable they'll be open later. These others are saying, regardless of if it would be profitable or not we've decided we don't want to take the chance. I guess I'm gambling with KW, but then again I like to gamble. ;)

IMO the perfect solution would be to post a closing time with the option to stay open longer if it is prudent to do so.

How many times has Kennywood decided to close at 7 or 7:30 (instead of the "benchmark" 10:00) solely because of low attendance? Is it a regular occurrence? Gonch, maybe the reason people aren't complaining about their policy is that they've "gotten used to it." But in this case, it's a bad thing right? (Just checking my scorecard.)

So what exactly are parks saving by cutting back on hours? Looking at just labor, since Jeff said that was the major expense,say you have 400 employees working in all services. Assuming they're paid $7.50 an hour, you save $3,000 in labor costs per hour per day. With per caps for the big parks between $35 and 40 per person, you're looking at a "savings" equal to 75-85 admissions per day. For parks that average at 10 to 40,000 people a day, 100 admissions is nothing. Are we to believe these parks aren't taking in $3,000 per hour after 7:00 or 8:00?

Nobody responded to my first question from my earlier post, so I'll rephrase it: If parks want to reduce hours to save money, why not open later instead of closing earlier?

Another thing, could we drop the "Don't lump me in with the enthusiasts" and "I'm not a coaster dork" crap already? Is the event in Hershey going to be an event for enthusiasts? Or a seminar for experts in theme park business to expound on their knowledge? Just need to know how high to turn up the smartass-meter that day, and how much caffeine I'll need to ingest that morning. ;)

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Jeff said:

The cost savings are mostly the cost of labor, not utilities. That's true for most businesses. Some of the optimization of resources you guys mention already happens. For example, gift shops and some food stands are frequently open well beyond closing time because there's money to be made there, and they're located generally closer to the gate.

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Okay, I'll buy into that logic. I'm sure it has more to do with labor than anything else. But that can be taken to the extreme. Sure, cutting 2 hours out of the park's daily operation is going to save a lot of money, but not as much as cutting 4 hours out of the park's daily operation. Why not trim hours from 10 to 6? That way, park employees can work "normal" hours, just like office people. Keep in mind, I am being a little sarcastic here (not at you Jeff, just at the situation in general), but I think I made my point. There are lots of ways to trim expenses to increase profits... it doesn't mean a company should consider all of them.

As for you Gonch, what the hell am I going to do with you? All this business talk and all on a coaster enthusiast site.

I do get what you're saying... most of the time. You like to evaluate the business side of things. I guess we differ because your idea of good business and my idea of good business are usually polar opposites. You think this might be a good idea but I think it's a lousy one. Getting back to the rubber band theory, things can only be stretched so far before they snap. $15 for parking. $5 for bottles of soda. Qbots to make lines shorter. Meal plans. Some things people can avoid, while others they must deal with. The point is, each thing that removes value- whether it be actual or just perceived- is something a company should stay away from, especially when amusement parks compete with so many other forms of entertainment for a customer's entertainment dollar. Why add one more thing to the list of "amusement park cons"? Why take hours away on top of everything else?

I appreciate the business decision for what it is. I also speak with my credit card. Went to Legoland last weekend and they closed at 5:00 pm on a Cali weekend. I won't go back any time soon. The family got bored in the evening.

I think I'm just less of an enthusiast as I age as I'm just not willing to tolerate operational flaws like I used to. It is just not that important to me. I'm not overly mad...just apathetic that this is the new way of doing things.

My new way of doing things involves a lot less amusement park trips and more beaches, bike riding, running, scuba diving, sports, etc. All activities that give me less stress than one train operations and closed snack shops.

I can only assume that my attitude is the minority or else the parks would not act as they do. I hope it works out well for them. It is working good for me!

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RatherGoodBear said:
So what exactly are parks saving by cutting back on hours? Looking at just labor, since Jeff said that was the major expense,say you have 400 employees working in all services. Assuming they're paid $7.50 an hour, you save $3,000 in labor costs per hour per day. With per caps for the big parks between $35 and 40 per person, you're looking at a "savings" equal to 75-85 admissions per day. For parks that average at 10 to 40,000 people a day, 100 admissions is nothing. Are we to believe these parks aren't taking in $3,000 per hour after 7:00 or 8:00?

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How many parks that can pull 10-40 thousand guests are going to only have 400 people working? And if there are that many people in the park, why would they close early? That example isn't realistic.

For years over PointBuzz (and GTTP before it), we've told people that if you want to know how busy the park will be, look at the operating hours. I've found this metric is universally true, even at, well, Universal. While I think 6pm closing are a drag in the off-season, I've usually done everything by 4pm because the crowds are so thin. Ditto for something like CP the first two weeks when they close at 7pm. I'm done by 3!

You can think like an enthusiast if you'd like, but I find that thinking like a manager armed with mountains of data makes more sense if you're asking why they cut hours.

By the way, the open later instead of close earlier thing is not practiced because that's not family friendly. Kids don't operate like that until they're teenagers.

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Gonch, maybe the reason people aren't complaining about their policy is that they've "gotten used to it." But in this case, it's a bad thing right? (Just checking my scorecard.)

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Not quite. Here's the changes needed on your scorecard:

I don't think KW's plan of attack for evening closing is bad. I think (like Incidentalist) that it's friggin' genius. Why? Because they close earlier when it doesn't make them money to stay open.

That's exactly what the original post (and everyone who agreed) is complaining that other parks are doing more and more.

I just have a hard time seeing how in one instance it's often listed as a fun little bit of 'charm', but in the other it's a horrible business move that reduces value and loses money and repeat guests.

But there probably is some truth to the 'it's always been that way thing' as well. At any rate it still feels a lot like letting the happy little small parks slide and calling out the big, heartless money grubbing parks as evil. Essentially par for the enthusiast course. :)

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Are we to believe these parks aren't taking in $3,000 per hour after 7:00 or 8:00?

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Apparently.

I mean, look at it this way. If the park was profitable in any meaningful way during those last two hours, why would they cut them?

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Another thing, could we drop the "Don't lump me in with the enthusiasts" and "I'm not a coaster dork" crap already?

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I'd prefer not to.

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Is the event in Hershey going to be an event for enthusiasts? Or a seminar for experts in theme park business to expound on their knowledge?

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Dunno. I won't be there. But if it were the latter, I'd make a much greater attempt to attend. ;)

But in all seriousness, there's a reason I don't attend enthusiast events outside of the CB events.

If I went into any more detail I'd be flying directly in the face of the two requests you made and in the interest of politeness and being accomodating, I refuse to do that. :)

Whether we like it or not, the companies that own these parks are there to make a profit - pure and simple. They will always try to come up with changes to improve their profit margins. The boards of directors really don't care if they anger a group of enthusiasts, as long as they are making the shareholders happy. This is the way most businesses are run in this country, whereas non-profit businesses are the minority. Now if these changes drive down attendance and decrease in-park spending, likely the companies will counter this with new attempts to offset these losses. It is a constant state of flux to maximize their bottom line. Will closing an hour or two early affect my spending? Probably not. My family will still be in the parks this summer, although we may choose to eat our evening meal after we have left the park. Will the loss of four meals bankrupt the park? Obviously not, since their operational expenses have also decreased. I suspect food sales drop off substanially after dark anyways. I can promise you these companies have done extensive marketing analysis to weigh all of these issues. If it doesn't work out the way they expect, they'll make changes to counter it next season. Am I happy with shorter park hours? Certainly not. But for now they will still get my money, which is all they care about anyways. Others may feel differently. *** Edited 4/24/2007 4:53:51 AM UTC by sws***

Are we to believe these parks aren't taking in $3,000 per hour after 7:00 or 8:00?

Well...if you've eaten dinner you're probably not going to spend much more on food.

If you're going to visit the park you've most likely paid for admission and entered the park at a much earlier hour.

So other than souvenirs, a drink, or maybe a funnel cake what do you think people spending money on in the after-dinner hours? And does it offset what it costs to operate the park during those hours? My guess is no or they'd keep the parks open.

Give credit to parks like KW for keeping their night hours long. KW normally (barring bad weather or poor attendance) stays open to at least 10 and will remain open up to an hour longer if the crowds justify it. The park is beautiful at night and the coasters become a whole new experience after dark.

There is also Lakeside which curtails day hours in favor of late night operation. This is a night park which shows its best face after dark.

Recarding KW, their after 5 reduced admission brings more people into the park for the evening and that helps justify the (usually) late hours. If the weather is bad (storms or unusually cold temperatures), of course, there may be an unusually early closing because of poor attendance. *** Edited 4/24/2007 10:11:44 AM UTC by Arthur Bahl*** *** Edited 4/24/2007 10:26:49 AM UTC by Arthur Bahl***

I am not sure the "reduced profit" argument holds water. I take note of the parks that charge by the ride for the most part. Knoebels, Jersey shore parks, etc. These tend to stay open later and continue to collect money from each ride pretty late and even beyond posted closing on many nights.

The POP parks already have your money so if they can push you out earlier and not piss you off too much it is more "profitable."

I think this shows that the the issue isn't if there are enough people to make it profitable, since the non POP parks show that usually there are, but rather a move by the POP parks since they already have your money.

The reason many of these small parks are able to stay open late is because they are in resort areas (which means all the tourists only have a 5 min ride to their hotel) or heavlily rely on very local (same town) people for their business (Kennywood.) The large regional parks tend to draw a lot of day trippers from the surrounding region (1-3 hours away) and those people are much less likely to stick it out till 11 pm/midnight when they have a 3 hour drive home.

On most evenings (except summer Saturdays) Holiday World closes at 9 or earlier. This makes sense for them for several reasons.

1. This is a family oriented park and not aimed at teenage thrill seekers (although many teens will come for the coasters and the waterpark).

2. There are few hotels nearby and most overnight visitors have a good drive back to their accommodations.

3. Many day visitors come from 2 or 3 hours drive away.

4. The lines are generally shorter than at a park like KI.

5. Much of the draw of the park comes from the water attractions which normally don't stay open late at any park.

6. Many of the park employees have a long commute.

HW is doing what is right for HW and for the type of visitors that they get. Late hours would do little for either the park or its guests. *** Edited 4/24/2007 10:58:29 AM UTC by Arthur Bahl***

Another point that has been made. If parks have less operating hours during the day, it could mean that the crowds are more concentrated all day long. Also meaning a lower quality experience in the form of longer lines..........

If you calculate the rides given between 9 and 10 PM at an average park and then spread them out over 11 hours and multiple rides during the day I'm guessing the impact on lines would be minimal.

The impact would more than likely be biggest on the most popular attractions (the ones that garner long lines from open to close) so I could surely see at least a little impact there. But still, I'm doubting it's much.

Someone could break out some real life numbers and do some fuzzy math pretty quickly.

We could just pick a popular coaster at a popular park if someone knows how many people ride that given coaster on a peak-season day. I'm sure some folks around here have some hard numbers.