Theme parks cost cutting = lower quality experience
I also remember that in 2001-2002 we had absolutely no new rides.
Now that the late night operating hours have been reduced, we've had a damn good spin and spue--if not a coaster--for the last three seasons running. DESPITE a drop in overall attendance.
Would I rather have my little do-it-yourself ERT? Or would I rather see them build new rides with the recovered profits?
Which choice REALLY increases the 'quality' of the experience? For everyone, not just myself?
Answer that question.
-CO
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Lord Gonchar said:
That's where KW's idea is best from a business standpoint. They 'look at the numbers' daily and should therefore make the maximum profit each day.Agreed. But I flipped it to the POV of the customer. Devil's advocate if you will.
No one has ever bitched that they got pushed out of KW early because it didn't make business sense to stay open late, so why is it a problem if other parks start doing it? That's the core point I wanted to hit with the KW example.
Because Kennywood is cheaper than Cedar Point, Six Flags parks, Carowinds, and so on. They say the "normal" closing time is till 10 also. There is less stuff to do at Kennywood also. There is only 4 roller coasters. Compared to a Six Flags park, you have to wait in line for some 10 coasters that could be 30 minutes each. I don't know how long Kennywood lines are, but I doubt they are as long as Cedar Point, Six Flags Magic Mountain, or Kings Dominion.
If a small park has 3 roller coasters, 10 major flats, 2 water flats, a show, and several kids rides wants to be open from 12-7, that's fine with me. I rather see the lights at night though, but why the heck not? Now, with a bigger park, that park better be open long enough because the lines are so long. Weekdays aren't as crowded in early May, and thus some parks aren't open that long.
Here's what it comes down to- you're getting less time to enjoy a park, and that impacts your experience regardless of how long you spend at the park. I've gone to Florida many times and worked out a schedule where we visit such-and-such park on a day when it's open to something crazy like midnight. We don't always stay until midnight, but we lived that day as if we were going to stay until midnight. When a park cuts back on hours, that's going to effect how you live that day. You're going to rush from ride to ride and shovel food into your mouth while on the run because you're going to have that much less time to play with. And if you're one of those people that stays at a park until it closes, regardless of whether or not you rode everything a million times, you're going to feel a little ripped off because what was once given to you is given to you no more. You're paying either the same amount of money or more money to get less, and that's the bottom line from where you- the customer- stand. If parks are going to trim hours that were once offered, then they should decrease the admission price on those days. After all, why should they benefit 100% (people paying for hours they can't spend in the park) when the guest doesn't benefit at all (people paying for hours they can't spend in the park)?
Maybe parks don't profit as much during the later hours as they do during afternoon hours, but I'm sure there are other hours throughout the day where profits dip a little. What if the 4 to 5 hour were proven to be less profitable? Why not close the park for that hour? After all, the park would cut costs.
Grocery stores are open late into the evening hours- go into one around 10:00 at night and you'll see a lot less customers than you would had you gone at 7:00. The store is making a lot less money later in the evening, but it remains open because people are used to the store being open... because giving the customer more hours to shop means making things more convenient for them. Sure, the store offsets some expenses by trimming the staff at night but the store is still paying an arm and a leg to remain open, yet they do it anyway. If they didn't, they'd lose customers, and they don't want to do that.
The point I'm trying to make? A company can take and take and take some more, all in the name of cutting costs, but there comes a point where the customer says he's had enough and he's taking his business elsewhere. Maybe parks are armed with all kinds of data that prove when they make the most profit, but are they armed with data that tells them when the customer is going to tell them to go f**k off? I doubt it.
Of course, when that happens, I'm sure the company will blame the weather for the decrease in attendance. And knowing the idiot stockholders, they'll believe it.
*** Edited 4/24/2007 4:19:21 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***
Regarding KW, there are 5 coasters not counting the kiddie coaster. Lines vary but hour long waits are common on Exterminator (you can avoid this if you ride it soon after the park opens) and can occur on Phantoms Revenge if only one train is operating (but the line shrinks quickly if two trains are running). 20 to 30 minute waits are common on the three wooden coasters during peak times and occasionally this may get longer on very busy days. *** Edited 4/24/2007 4:34:10 PM UTC by Arthur Bahl***
Arthur Bahl
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
I have determined that I need to be off the road by 1-2 am after a day outside, anytime later and Im a danger to myself and others if I got up 6-8 am like I normally do. I also dont really feel that I have any right to complain about operating hours when I inevitably got in with a SP to the big regionals (I plan trips to maximise this.)
While last year losing an hour of nighttime at BGE stunk (I love night there) I certainly didnt mind the extra hour of sleep I got after my 2.5 hour drive back to DC. I also managed to do everything I wanted to do at the park (and Water Country) so I didnt feel cheated. In fact, you would have to go back quite a few years to the last time I felt like I didnt do everything I wanted to do at a park and left disappointed. When that becomes more common you will hear me start to complain, but for now that one hour isnt going to hurt that much. *** Edited 4/24/2007 5:06:04 PM UTC by Touchdown***
2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando
Maybe it's just the way I go about amusement parks, but this seriously affects me. When I was younger and had fewer obligations, I would get to an amusement park in the middle of the afternoon and if I had to come back at a later date because I didn't get my fill, it didn't really bother me. As I have less free time and more to deal with in my life, getting to parks late morning and staying until closing is the best option for me because it's likely I won't find the time to make another trip. That means we ride as much as we can during the course of the day while maintaining an intelligent pace- of course, long park hours are necessary to do things that way.
I'm sorry, but I can't imagine myself being the only one that thinks that way.
Besides, suppose a park makes (and keep in mind I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air) 40% profit from 10am to 8pm, then makes 20% profit from 8pm to 11pm. If you average things out, that means the 40% profit/hour goes down a bit, but let's look at things a different way. If you cut those last three hours out of the operating schedule, that means you're missing out on three extra hours of profitable operation. Granted, the profit wasn't as good as it could be, but it's still income... still revenue... still profit, money to be made. I can see a park closing those last three hours of the day if they were losing money, but to close when there is more money to be made? To me, that seems more irresponsible from a financial standpoint.
2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando
Rob Ascough said:
I can see a park closing those last three hours of the day if they were losing money, but to close when there is more money to be made? To me, that seems more irresponsible from a financial standpoint.
I get the feeling parks would be open 24 hours a day if there were money to be made.
The only reasonable explanation is that these later hours just aren't profitable, at least in the short term. Like others have pointed out, there may be other considerations that aren't quite so quantifiable.
-CO
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
If you cut those last three hours out of the operating schedule, that means you're missing out on three extra hours of profitable operation. Granted, the profit wasn't as good as it could be, but it's still income... still revenue... still profit, money to be made.
Do you really think that's the case?
Yes, the people in charge of these companies and parks are not infallible - not even close. But do you really think they're cutting hours that are profitable?
Are you giving these people so little credit as to think that they'd be incompentent enough to reduce the operating day by 15% for no reason?
Do you really think we know something they don't to base that kind of decision on?
If anything I see it in direct opposition of the mindset you seem to have. Rather than thinking the folks who make these decisions are complete idiots with no common sense at all running around cutting profits off the bottom line all willy-nilly, I step back and think, "Gee, I never realized the end of the day was so 'dead' for the parks. Shows how little I know."
And if you want my take as a customer rather than an armchair CEO who likes to talk the business side of the industry on an internet forum, then you get this:
It doesn't affect me personally either. We rarely spend an open-to-close day at the park anymore. I'm in it, just because I dig parks and given the choice of blowing an afternoon hanging out with the family at an amusement park or blowing the afternoon doing anything else - the park visit wins.
I can illustrate this casual approach best with Kings Island. This past weekend was my 5th visit to the park in 4 seasons. After that visit I still have 5 'credits' there that I haven't gotten yet.
This latest visit saw us arriving about 3 hours after opening and leaving an hour before close. We rode a total of 6 rides. Yet when we hit the car everyone talked about how much fun they had and we'll probably be back for more this weekend.
This is pretty typical for us. The exception is a long trip to a park that we have no idea when we'll get back to again. Then I try to cram as much into a day as possible. But here's the catch - I don't think that's typical behavior. That's an enthusiast mindset.
So I guess I can summarize like this:
1. It doesn't really affect me too much.
2. I don't think it really affects most visitors much.
3. I don't think I know more than the people in charge of such decisions.
Imagine the hours of fun you'll have at theme parks this summer. If you overhear someone in line complaining that it is $3 for a bottled water, you just point at your shirt. When someone is griping about the lack of new coasters at their local thrill zone, again simply make sure your shirt is in full view. Stylish and educational, these shirts will be the next big thing in the enthusiast world and will help educate the plebeians that an amusement park is certainly no place for fun. :)
Ray P. (note the smiley face please... this was a very poor attempt at humor!)
2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando
Lord Gonchar said:
Do you really think that's the case?Yes, the people in charge of these companies and parks are not infallible - not even close. But do you really think they're cutting hours that are profitable?
Are you giving these people so little credit as to think that they'd be incompentent enough to reduce the operating day by 15% for no reason?
Do you really think we know something they don't to base that kind of decision on?
Honestly, I'm not sure. These days it's so common for business people to talk out of both sides of their mouths (and, in some cases, their a$$e$) that it's often very hard to sift through the piles of crap to find rare nuggets of truth.
I wouldn't go as far as saying I don't give the people running parks any credit whatsoever but I do question a lot of their decisions. I know of many businesses that eliminate certain things (products, services, whatever) because they're not profitable enough. That's not to say they're losing money, it's to say they're not making as much profit as they'd like on items. I deal with a number of large companies in my line of work and the people running those companies have specifically told me that certain things are cut when they don't generate enough profit, even if no losses are being incurred by keeping them around. I'm keeping that in the back of my mind as I think about all of this.
I'm not going to assume that I know more than any CEO but I do know that companies often make short-sighted decisions and fail to consider they might actually have long-term effects. Again, the companies I deal with have illustrated this many times over, right to my face. One company changed the return policy on a line of items they produced, claiming that the few customers that complained and went elsewhere would be drops in the bucket compared to the overall cost savings. Guess what? They soon admitted that they made a huge mistake, claiming they had no idea the negative response would be so great and have such drastic effects on the bottom line.
In the theme park example, there *is* no other operation to devote resources to. That's all you've got. If anything, a short-sighted manager is incentivized to grab the marginal dollar an extra hour brings right now.
*** Edited 4/24/2007 7:35:47 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
There is money to be made in those late hours. If there really wasn't, I don't think as many people would have a problem with it.
Unfortunately the actual reason for less hours is to bump up profit margins. They are not cutting losses, they are increasing income. And that is what is causing a lot of ire in folks. "If they are making money anyway, why can't you stay open?" they say. "Nope. Sorry. Gotta bump up the margins 1%"
It may be good for the bottom line, but the paying customers don't care about that.
Exit polls? The thousands to tens of thousands of angry customers stomping from the park?
It's only your supposition without hard data, isn't it?
Most of my local parks midnight closings were snoozefests with walk-on rides and rideops waitng for the park to close. I'm not going to pretend it wasn't.
Just because that may have been occasionally good for ME (and by that I mean very sporadically, they were mostly a bore) doesn't mean they were good for anyone else. Unless the park was packed to capacity, scarcely anyone else gave a rip either.
-CO
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
It is? Other than long-term profitability, the only thing that really matters, what is debatable? Granted, there are a lot of things that go into that, like customer retention, debt management, etc., but I fail to see how cutting back hours negatively affects any of that (in a net gain/loss kind of way). Six Flags has had fewer guests who spend more. Ditto for Universal Orlando, which closes at 6pm in the off-season. These sound like steps backward, but if the number on the bottom line goes up, clearly it's a win.
Rob Ascough said:
But what you fail to consider is that "smart business" is debatable.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
viper432@aol.com said:
It is preposterous to believe that the big parks are losing money in the last few hours of the day. Pay one price admissions should be spread equally through all operating hours (otherwise it would only make since to be open from 10a-11a). Sure revenue may drop some, but as people have said here they are more likely to leave early and eat somewhere else or spend more time riding and less spending with shorter hours. If the park is open they will slow down, have a meal, play some games, etc.
I happen to agree with your entire post, but this in particular stands out. If a park remains open until 10:00, people are going to feel compelled to stay in the park and pay for an overpriced meal. If the park closes at 8:00, I bet a lot of people are going to let their stomachs growl until the park closes, then go somewhere else and eat. And it's pretty obvious that theme park meals are a very high-profit sale- it's not like a slice of theme park pizza costs $4.00 to manufacture and toss in an oven.
I don't know too many of the ins-and-outs of theme parks but I wager they're a lot like any other business where the manager is told to increase profits. If the last few hours of the day are bringing the daily average down, that alone could be more than enough reason for a park manager to slash hours. I bet someone like Mark Shapiro or Dick Kinzel cares a lot more about a park's profit percentage than how many hours the park was open, therefore opening the door for less and less hours.
It's all well and good that some of you care about how much money theme parks make and how they make that money, but at the end of the day, I'm neither a businessman or an enthusiast (even though I am both)- I am a customer, and as a customer, I care about what I'm getting for my money. Many of you claim that I'm just one individual speaking his mind, and while that's true, it's also true of all of you. Just because it doesn't matter to you what time a park closes doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to anyone aside from me. Paying customers are going to realize this in time, and I think it's going to have consequences.
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