Theme parks cost cutting = lower quality experience
Many business decisions tend to be short minded. Cut costs now so short term profits are increased. But in the long term, if the quality of product is reduced, then it means less repeat business.
I see it just the opposite. This is a long term decision. In fact, it will probably hurt short term and pay off long term.
WHAAAA!? You ask.
Look at it this way. I still maintain that it's the change that upsets most people, not the result. That's debatable, I suppose.
We've established already that the parks maintain later closing times that they get emptier late in the day (see just about every post in this thread)
So first of all a majority of guests won't find this to be a 'reduction of quality' as they weren't there in the first place. In fact, if I wanted to be a complete jerk, I'd argue that they now see an increased perceived value as it feels to them like they're 'closing the park' rather than leaving early and thus maximizing the time available to them for the price - but I won't go there. :)
Secondly, by the time 2012, 2017, 2027 rolls around, these hours will have been in place for 5, 10 or 20 years or more and will just be normal. No one will see 'reduced quality' because it's just how it is and how it's always been.
Short term, the minority who stays late and cares enough about the opportunity to stay late, gets mad and a certain percentage of this minorty maybe decide not to return and profits potentially drop (assuming the lost customers revenue is greater than the savings in decreased operations). Short term loss for the park.
Long Term, people get used to or are conditioned to or only know of said parks using these operating hours. The decreased value doesn't exist for these people and they visit as always paying the same prices in comparison to the parks now lower operating costs. That means more profit and equal guest satisfaction. Long term win for the park.
Well, I guess I have the benefit of having talked to people who make those decisions. Do you think they're going to intentionally throw away money?
Rob Ascough said:
I don't buy that at all.
Do they get it right all of the time? I don't think so. Joe mentioned perceived value, and that certainly plays a part. CP closed Friday nights for Halloweekends one year at 11 because they didn't have the bodies staying until midnight. I complained that five hours was less worth it. Perhaps they agreed, because they brought it back to midnight the very next year.
But aside from perceptions, this stuff is infinitely measurable, and we've discussed many times about how much Cedar Fair likes to measure everything. Most providers of consumer products would kill to have the usage data that amusement parks have.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Who have you been talking to? Oh, that's right... Cedar Fair... the hallowed leaders of the amusement industry. Because we all know that what Cedar Fair does is perfect and without flaw. As for a response to what you said, I think I can tie it in with my response to what Gonch said.
Sorry Gonch. It'll come as no surprise but I completely disagree with you. As someone else said, it's about perceived value. Not to mention actual value.
Actually, let's go back to another conversation we had about theme parks... the dreaded Six Flags VIP plan. It was said that people would be willing to pony up the coin for an expensive day at a theme park because it was something special... something they wouldn't do all the time. If a family drops all that money, do you honestly think they want to be pushed out of the park at 8 or 9 on a summer evening? Chances are, the people that paid a ton of money for "legal" line jumping are going to want to squeeze every penny out of their day... even more than people that paid for regular admission. Again, it's an example of charging more and giving less.
I can see this being a good idea if a park is completely dead from, say, 8 to 10 at night, where empty trains are the norm because no one is riding anything. But the vast majority of theme parks I have visited are pretty busy in the later hours, especially parks that have water rides included as part of admission (Dorney, Geauga Lake, Hersheypark, Great Escape, etc.). Perhaps they're not as busy as they are when the sun is still shining, but there are always more than enough people to justify the park remaining open.
Of course there are savings to be realized- there are always savings to be realized if you look hard enough- but there comes a point where the customer starts getting nickeled-and-dimed and they realize it. People are used to parks being open late for a reason- because parks have always been open late! I'm sure people would get used to slashed hours over time, but why should they have to? There is no reason people should pay more and accept less.
Rob Ascough said:Chances are, the people that paid a ton of money for "legal" line jumping are going to want to squeeze every penny out of their day... even more than people that paid for regular admission.
Just the opposite. The people that paid for the "legal" line jumping have already ridden everything they wanted to, well before closing time. : )
Besides, anyone that has the type of money that they can spend it like a drunken sailor on shore leave couldn't possibly appreciate the nostalgia of a warm, summer night at an amusement park all lit up, right? More than likely they will take the kids somewhere to teach them how to make fun of the poor people. :)
"Daddy look! A real poor person!"
-Tambo
Granted, my family is probably different, but often suppertime for us in a park doesn't happen until 6:30 or 7:00. If the park was going to close at 7 or 8, we'd probably skip eating and just keep on riding (spending no more money) then grab something at one of the restaurants outside the park, which would be open until 10 or 11.
If the cost of electricity for rides and buildings is that much of an issue, why have it at all? Order rides without light packages, rip down the neon from the buildings and put up a sodium bulb or two. The socialist workers' compound is a theme we haven't seen explored at any parks yet.
Maybe the early exodus isn't so much a case of we don't want to stay so late as let's leave early to beat the (perceived) traffic jam that happens at closing time. I've been at hockey games that were tied with 5 minutes or so left in the game and watched hundreds of people run to the exits just so they could avoid traffic.
What does this have to do with anything? Well now if people see the park closes at 8 instead of 9, they might leave at 7 instead of 8 to beat the traffic, and the park will still be nearly empty for that last hour or two.
As (hopefully) regional parks experience a similar bump in attendance soon look for the hours to be expanded, because when it comes right down to it hours and attendance are directly related. Im sure that the parks know what they are doing, especially when it comes to operating hours, and they will act to maximize profits.
2022 Trips: WDW, Sea World San Diego & Orlando, CP, KI, BGW, Bay Beach, Canobie Lake, Universal Orlando
Even BGE has shortened their weekday operating schedule so it is not something happening to just one park chain.
You're getting personal again for no reason. My statement was not meant to belittle you, only to explain why my perspective is different. And no, I do talk to more than just Cedar Fair people. In fact, I even made a statement where I felt they got it wrong. Are you just reading selectively?
Rob Ascough said:
^ Wow. Twice in one day, I get to stare in awe at you and the powers you have. My lucky day.
The cost savings are mostly the cost of labor, not utilities. That's true for most businesses. Some of the optimization of resources you guys mention already happens. For example, gift shops and some food stands are frequently open well beyond closing time because there's money to be made there, and they're located generally closer to the gate.
At the end of the day, consumers are going to decide whether or not the hours offer value for what they pay. People will vote with their credit cards.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
I get the feeling that if a park raised admission to $1000 and was only open for 1/2 an hour a day, 3 days a week, Lord Gonchar would find a way to defend it as the most ingenious thing to happen to the world since sliced bread. Unless that park is Conneaut in which case it would be slammed as making a horrible decision that will spell sudden death.
As a customer of a park, I care little about how much profit the park can squeeze out of me. I really only care about what kind of experience I have. So arguments about how much this or that will increase profit holds little interest for me. And somehow I doubt that the decreased profit for a major chain park during the last 2 hours of the day is really going to break them.
I find it very interesting that smaller parks (parks which I assume operate on much tighter budgets) are able to continue to keep prices low, keep their hours, and offer other assorted other niceties that impress customers.
Of course, the standard stock reply to that is "they have to do those things because they are just a little hick park out in the middle of nowhere." Well, that little hick park is earning my business instead of taking it for granted. And that's a business model I can admire, and a reason why I try to deal with local companies as much as possible.
When I was a lad on family vacations and we happened upon an amusement park, we always stayed from open to close. We already commited the entire day to it and it might be the only time we visited a park that year. What would we do if we left early? Sit in the motel and watch TV? Even if we were tired, we found it fun to sit on a bench and just enjoy the atmosphere of the park.
Look at the title of the thread. Cost cutting = lower quality experience, not cost cutting equals orgasmic late night orgies for stockholders. I think it's pretty clear that a lot of cost cutting does equal a lower quality experience.
*** Edited 4/23/2007 10:06:14 PM UTC by millrace***
I get the feeling that if a park raised admission to $1000 and was only open for 1/2 an hour a day, 3 days a week, Lord Gonchar would find a way to defend it as the most ingenious thing to happen to the world since sliced bread. Unless that park is Conneaut in which case it would be slammed as making a horrible decision that will spell sudden death.
Two things:
1. Then you'll be saddened to kbnow the judge denied the sale this morning.
2. Funny I was thinking just the opposite. No matter what decision any big, non-traditional parks makes, Millrace will find a way to say it's bad for business.
As a customer of a park, I care little about how much profit the park can squeeze out of me. I really only care about what kind of experience I have. So arguments about how much this or that will increase profit holds little interest for me.
And that's the distinction some of you seem to miss so often - especially in my posts.
I like to get on here and talk industry business. I rarely come on to talk as a coaster dork. (notice, I'm not present in too many "I dig this ride" or "I dig this park" threads)
I even said in this very thread that I like being in the parks at night. As a customer it's an option that's nice. I'm not in most of these threads as a customer. I'm in them based on an interest in the theme park business.
And in interest of the business side of things at the parks, this makes perfect sense.
Well, that little hick park is earning my business instead of taking it for granted. And that's a business model I can admire, and a reason why I try to deal with local companies as much as possible.
That's cute and all, but to me it's like buying something I don't need just because it's on sale - it might be a good deal with warm fuzzy vibes but it's not what I'm after most of the time.
For example say someone had an average day at the park for most of the day. Assuming he still has the desire to stay till closing at 10pm, his last 2 hours might be really good. It might include some night rides, perhaps on flat rides or coasters, or whatever. The park typically looks the best at night, with all the rides,shops, and pathways showing off their lighting packages. If he is at a park that has the fireworks at night, that could also add to his value during the last 2 hours. Perhaps the majority of the day was just average, but the last 2 hours was magical. The likelyhood of him returing or telling his friends is much greater.
All this is hypothetical, but I would doubt any of this is being considered, since its hard to quantify how much revenue is generated from opearting the last 2 hours when it comes to return business or the good word of mouth spread from his good visit.
One thing that should be looked at, is what time it gets dark in the specific location. Cincinnati for example has more daylight in the evening due to its position in the eastern time zone relative to say virginia, or the north east. It doesn't get really dark till 9:30 or so in cincinnati, why it might be dark at 8 or 8:30 further east. This probably has to do with certain parks further east in the same time zone operating less hours in the night. Just something to consider, since families would with kids might not want to stay once it gets dark.
Lord Gonchar said:
by the time 2012, 2017, 2027 rolls around, these hours will have been in place for 5, 10 or 20 years or more and will just be normal. No one will see 'reduced quality' because it's just how it is and how it's always been.
I really don't like this argument. Is it true? YES! Does that make it right? NO!
Using this logic, one could do or take away anything and given enough time it would just become normal. Does the fact that it becomes the norm make it acceptable to begin with?
Let's say the government passes a law that is blatantly unconstitutional on it's face, yet it is upheld by the Supreme Court. In 20 years, that law would be seen as normal and people would have adpated to it. Does that make the initial act ok?
Now I'm not trying to compare illegal government action and the business decision of an amusement park chain. Just showing where this logic can lead.
I really don't like this argument. Is it true? YES! Does that make it right? NO!
Again. Confusing facts with feelings.
Never said it was right, never said it was wrong. Just said it does indeed make business sense.
But here's another concept along the same lines. Don't look forward, look back.
What if your 'right' or 'normal' is someone else's 'wrong' or 'change' - because it is.
Amusement parks are nothing like they were 20 years ago in many aspects. 20 years ago they were nothing like they were 20 years before that. And so on and so on.
So your normal operating hours, pricing schemes, etc are the new 'bad' ways of doing thing to a generation before you.
Change isn't automatically bad...nor is it automatically good. But the perception of change vs 'normal' or 'the way it is' varies greatly - based solely on what you've been accustomed to.
And just for the record - Carowinds used to close at 8pm back in 1983 (source) - and they were closed on Fridays. So even with the new 'cut back' or 'reduced value' hours, they're offering more park time now than they did 25 years ago.
But most people here are accustomed to the more recent, later hours, so an earlier close seems like a 'bad' think when in reality it's still an end gain over the last 1/4 century.
In the bigger picture, it's not a cutback, but a return to 'normal' after a failed experiment of running longer hours. :)
*** Edited 4/24/2007 12:04:43 AM UTC by Lord Gonchar***
Enthusiasts love to hold on to the nostalgia of their childhood which is great. But amusement parks are businesses, and as times change, so do they. I remember when you could watch two movies for the price of one, but damned if that makes good business sense anymore.
BUT, almost all of the change has been in the way of more. More coasters, more frequently, more loops, more height, more hours, more etc... It's very easy to accept more of something, even if it also costs more.
Generally it's called progress. I would call this regress.
Some things obviously can't stay the same way forever (new coaster every year), but I find it amazing that the longer operating day is being targeted.
There is also a difference between never having something (early closing hours in the 80's) and not having had something for a while (early closing hours 5 years down the road). As long as people remember, people will make an issue out of it.
edit - Still want to remind you that my initial post was mostly against your reasoning. That same reasoning can be used to justify taking away something from you that is far more valuable than a few extra hours at an amusement park.
*** Edited 4/24/2007 12:32:30 AM UTC by Incidentalist***
Spinout said:
SFOG closes at 9 in July. A couple days (Saturdays) it is open to 10.
I believe SFOG gave 10-10 all summer another shot last season (or was it '05?) and the park once again decided it was only justifiable on Saturdays.
Since the southern parks are being discussed, I remember when Dollywood was open 9-10 everyday June thru August. Surprisingly this was back when it was a show park....before the "big" rides.
Busch Gardens Europe has also cut back quite a bit over the last few years. In the 80s they would run all the way to midnight on some days.
Generally it's called progress. I would call this regress.
Yup. That's normally my side of things. But progress is change and like I said in my previous post - not all change is good...nor is it bad.
Go back to your unconstitutional law example. So it got changed and upheld by the Supreme Court, but it's put in front of them again 20 years later and reversed. Technically it's regression, but it's change for the better.
As long as people remember, people will make an issue out of it.
Exactly my original point. Give it a few years and no one will care...not that I suspect many do already outside of forums like these.
The park has no set close time, they play it by ear based on viability of being open. No one ever complains about that - in fact it's often laughed about as a cute quirk of the beloeved small park.
You have no guarantee of when you'll be asked to leave. It could be 9pm, it could be 11pm and it changes day to day. That's this same idea taken to the Nth degree. "We're not even telling you when we close, we'll play it by ear. As long as it makes sense, we'll keep the lights on" or as the KW site puts it:
"Closing times vary depending upon weather and crowd conditions, but closing generally occurs around 10 pm."
But yeah, KW is one of the 'good' parks, so it's ok. :)
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