The real "What is Holiday World up to?" thread

Swoosh:

That is why I sometimes don't like coaster enthusiast. They think they know everything about coasters and don't appreciate what the engineers, maintance workers, ride operators or others for all their hard work that lets you and others enjoy them. I personally feel that PKI wood coaster maintance does a great job. I guess you don't but I have first hand experience on how hard they work.

Your opinion might be more valid if you had other experts in the industry that agree with you. I am waiting for someone that is in the industry to back what I am saying. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think you have an engineering degree, worked on maintance at any park, or likely worked as anything at an amusemement park. You don't seem like much of an expert on this topic, and I don't care how many coasters you have ridden.

Back to the topic, if Holiday wants to add the longest wooden coaster in the world, good for them. But if the park with the most wooden track and a big time budget that attracts over 3.3 million guest each year, has their hands full maintaing their wooden coasters. Then how do you expect a small park like Holiday World with not nearly the resources to maintain it? I just think they should not try to make it that big or long. *** Edited 6/5/2005 5:50:03 PM UTC by Beast Fan***

Hey Beast Fan, If their maintenance teams and ethics are so exceptional, how come they castrated a classic, noteworthy John Allen woodie that is credited to have started the coaster boom of the last thirty three years? Don't they have any respect for this classic wooden coaster designed by the very last of the great PTC engineers? Mr. Allen's designs were never considered that strenuous, but for some strange reason Kings Island has managed to desecrate one of his most popular designs by adding trim brakes and even removing of the final hill to each side and for what???...more trim brakes on a coaster that clearly doesn't need them!! You can go to PKI and ride your overbraked and *cared for* woodies. I'll keep driving past there on my way to Holiday World!!

Wood Coaster Fan Club - "Sharing a Passion for the Classics"

Thrillman:

I think you are being a little harsh on the Racer. Yes it does have a trim brake on the turnaround and had the last hill removed. That is all the modifications I know about. The last hill was removed because I think they needed it to make a pathway to Flight of Fear. At least that was what I was led to believe, even though they later realized that it was not necessary. The trim brake is not on that hard and does not effect the second half of the ride that much. I am sure there are reasons for it, but never worked on that ride, so I am not exactly sure.

If you think the park is doing such a bad job maintaining there rides, then why is Beast ranked number 1 and top 5 in all these polls? Someone must like it. There are just the handful of enthusiasts (more like enthusiass) that don't like it. They complain about how the trains don't track that well, it is too breaked, there is no air time and all that other crap. However while they are thinking that , just this past night the Beast had the second largest line, with Italian Job one. This is for a ride that is over 25 years old. Also the riders were cheering loudling after getting off the ride, like they do every night. I should know I worked on the Beast for 3 years.

Kings Island wood coaster maintance must be doing something right. Beast was ranked number one wooden coaster the last few years on this site, coasterbuzz.com. This means the people here think it is better than Raven, Legend, Bolder Dash, Shivering Timbers. It also was again ranked in the top 10 for the Amusement Today Golden Ticket Awards. The Beast is really a true legend (not the holiday world ride) and a crowd pleaser. It has made Kings Island famous and lots of money.

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Don't say I told you so, when in 3 years the new wooden at Holiday World is rough.

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No.

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I don't know why people perfer the Raven to Legend. Legend is a much superior ride. It is much longer, has much more interesting layout, a helix, more tunnels. All Raven has is a Rediculously insane amount of more airtime.

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Fixed. Sometimes people enjoy Air and Speed over Laterals and length. You're making too many judgements here.

Yes, the Beast is probably well maintained, and maintained as best as possible, but the amount of care that Holiday World places on their woodies is near-insanity. But I don't blame PKI's maintenaince for having the roughest(yet fun) rides of any major park in America, they just have bought a lot of rough rides(Arrow, Vekoma, Woodies that rip themselves apart, LIM Bowl,etc) *** Edited 6/5/2005 6:37:14 PM UTC by thepinkdoomofmonkeys***

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... then why is Beast ranked number 1 and top 5 in all these polls? Beast was ranked number one wooden coaster the last few years on this site, coasterbuzz.com...It also was again ranked in the top 10 for the Amusement Today Golden Ticket Awards.

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I don't honestly care either way in this discussion, I just wanted to point out that in Mitch Hawker's Wood Coaster Poll (a poll regarded by a majority of enthusiasts as the most accurate and truly representative of popularity among coaster diehards, not only for it's in depth rankings analysis but also for the fact that it's not used to sell advertising nor is it a secondary feature on a much larger site) that The Beast came in at #47 last year and in the past 9 years has never placed higher than #43 worldwide.

Raven and Legend both landed in the top 10 and neither has ever rated lower than 15 since they've been built with Raven never falling below #10.

Not necessarily representative of what I personally think as I've never been to Holiday World (until the end of this month :) ), but I just thought I'd point that out for the sake of debate.

*** Edited 6/5/2005 6:48:21 PM UTC by Lord Gonchar***

Maybe I am being somewhat harsh about the Racer, but what I have stated is true. I used the Racer as an example because it's a relatively mild coaster compared to SOB and Beast. It's the perfect example for me to make my point against your arguement. But while were at it, I didn't even mention the other John Allen woodie in the park that now sports a trim brake and also had it's final hill removed...Beastie!! Of the three juniors woodie designs existing stateside at the Paramount Parks, why is Beastie the only one that has been neutered? The other two at Dominion and Carowinds run excellently without all the extra hardware added or hill removed. Carowinds version of the coaster runs the best of three IMO. Hardly my idea of expert coaster maintenance when hills are removed and brakes added. It's a junior for pete's sake!!

To answer your other question, I personally don't take a lot of stock in polls in general. Heck, I have thirty coasters or so in my top ten because wooden coasters are so unique and have so much character. I can mostly thank CCI for that too because the more I rode their rides, the more older classic rides I've loved for years were being pushed farther down my list. But my guess about why Beast is so popular is because of it's uniqueness. and it's finale. I like to refer to it as a runaway mine train because it contains more of those type of elements than a *true* coaster. All the brakes ruin the *true* coaster experience for me with Beast. So I have absolutely no problem in saying that Raven and Legend are what the Beast should have been. I like the Beast, but it's greatness is tied into it's size, uniqueness, and that intense lateral filled final helix.

Oh yeah...hype and marketing I'm sure play into it somewhat too.

Wood Coaster Fan Club - "Sharing a Passion for the Classics"

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Thrillerman said:
...If their maintenance teams and ethics are so exceptional...

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And I'm sure that your years of experience in maintenance of a ride decades old would allow you to know exactly what to do with the ride, right?

hehehe.....your funny Jeff. =P

Wood Coaster Fan Club - "Sharing a Passion for the Classics"

Beast Fan, we aren't questioning that PKI's maintenance team isn't good. But the Beast should be running the way it should back in 79 when it opened. The thing flew, im told. (I was born after the beast).

But obviously, PKI can't handle the maintenance that comes with 2 HUGE woodies. Many rides are neglected because of it. Poor Racer. That is a John Allen classic. Anything he does I love.

Don't get me wrong, but I would think Holiday World and their exceptional staff and maintenance crew, could handle a woodie that big. If they can take amazing care of the two they have now, what makes you think that they can't give a huge one the TLC it needs.

Are you honestly telling us if that HW builds a world-record coaster, you would boycott the park? We don't even know what it is yet, I hope to hell it's an AWESOME woodie.

Don't knock HW for taking the beast's record. It was bound to happen sooner or later. This one may be just the one this country is looking for.

Katie

Coaster Katie:

How do you know that the Beast should run like it did in 1979? I mean the skid brakes were not that reliable way of stopping a train. They did not work well in rain and a train colided back in 2001, because of the rain and skid brakes. The ride needed an update braking system and they even tried the first drop without any brakes. However that did not work out.

I think that PKI can handle their wooden coasters just fine. I could not think of another major park that could do a better job. I think the trackwork on Son of Beast as less to do with their roughness than the trains.

Holiday World does a great job of maintaining their wooden coasters. There is no argument from me on that. I just think maintaining a ride that big is a major challange. They also don't like to modify or trim their wooden coasters. So Gravity Group must do an exceptional job designing it. Most large wooden coasters have had modifications. Not just ones at PKI either, to be honest the Beast is the best of the large ones. Look at Mean Streak, Rattler, and others. Mean streak has several brakes on its first drop and almost stops on the midcourse. Rattler has its first drop raised 50 feet or so, and had other major modifications.

It all depends on the park... that's how people decide whether or not to blast a park for doing whatever they do to a wood ride. You won't hear anyone say that Kennywood's Jack Rabbit was ruined and made non-classic by the magnetic brakes, but PKI gets crap for it.

I'll never understand that, since The Beast runs considerably faster since changing to the mags.

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Beast Fan said:
I hope it is not the longest wooden coaster in the world. I know the amusement park industry is a competetive business, but that would be a slap in the face to the Beast and Paramount Kings Island.

Rides like Raven or Legend are inspired by the Beast. The idea of having a wooden coaster speed through a dark forest, with tunnels is what made the Beast famous and found on both Legend and Raven. Legend even had a tunnled helix, which is another feature the Beast is famous for.

So it is one thing to build rides inspired by a true Legend (The Beast). However it is another thing to take away a record that has held for like 26 years. When Paramount Kings Island built the Son of Beast, they likely made sure that the length did not exceed the Beast, so they stopped at 7000 or so.

I probably will not go to Holiday World if it is the longest wooden coaster. I rather have a ride be 7300 feet of track, then 7500 and be the longest wooden coaster.

David *** Edited 6/5/2005 12:28:47 PM UTC by Beast Fan***

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Ahhh, Poor Beast is gonna be beaten by a COASTER NOT HALF FILLED WITH BRAKES, THAT IS ACTUALLY SMOOTH AND Without trains that have lapbars that are out of SPEC.

I also wonder if this happens, WIll it be one lifthill? COOL!

Im not knocking you for being a Beast fan, But you have to realize Alton Towers also has plans for THE WORLDS LONGEST WOODIE, Two lifts using a valley and over 9000ft of track. (Thus far this project has been nixed by local zoning)

I don't care if it's the longest. If it's as good or better than their other two, This 170 mile away person will have a HW season pass and not a PKI.

Chuck

Well, *if* Holiday World is getting a wooden coaster, one thing that would be a big improvement over the ones at PKI would be the trains. The Beast, Racers and SOB all have some high density foam padding on the seat back where most of the CCI woodies had the more traditional PTC padding which is softer. Assuming that this wooden coaster is a GG ride, I'm sure that they'll go with the same stock that runs on Raven and Legend. That alone can make a big difference because not every jolt gets transferred straight right into your body. Not to mention that these would be two bench PTC's as opposed to the three-seaters.

Also, this is looking like it could be a steel structured wood coaster, so maybe more time could be spent focusing on the track and not both the track and structure?

I might have to move back to Louisville for this one! *** Edited 6/6/2005 2:01:24 AM UTC by Cory Patrick***

Also, If you don't think SFGADV isn't out to set records with their new woodie, I think you'd be sadly mistaken.

Chuck, who agrees with Jeff that Beast runs faster in places with the mags but not the helix.

Chuck:

I guess you are still mad about the flyers going away and holding a grudge on PKI. Anyway I just think it is not right to slap a ride in the face that has given so much to the industy. Regardless of whether you like it or not, just don't think it is right.

However I also think it is not right to clone the coney island cyclone and they did that. The Beast does run about the same speed compared to a normal ride with the skids. A way to tell how fast it is running, is to see how far it goes up the second lift hill. There are a few visual markers on the second lift like the light post. It runs the fastest on a hot day, with a full train, later in the day after the ride has been running for a while. Also it runs faster when the track is slicked after some rain.

It will never run brakeless like it did the few times with the skids. The last time I rode that, was during a dry run day like in the 40's. So cold so they turned off most of the brakes. It still runs really well, and people still cheer for it at night. The line was one of the longest last saturday night, so definately not losing popularity.

I think the mitch internet poll is not that great. It gives to much weight to people that have ridden a lot of coasters. However is the person who been on 150 coasters, less important than the guy who rode 500? Not sure about that, and feel that its rankings only reflect online coaster fans, not everybody. Kind of a bias there, not a true sample of the population.

Anyway I am sure that Holiday World's wooden coaster will be good. Just think it is a slap in the face to do that. I might see PKI countering with their own longest wooden coaster. Alton Towers ride is not happening as of now. Six Flags Great Adventure might be tall and fast, but who knows how long it is. *** Edited 6/6/2005 2:32:17 AM UTC by Beast Fan***

This has gotten pretty bad.

If the records broken, so what? It doesn't make The Beast any less of an amazing ride. If it isn't broken, then it will be some other time.

The fact is some time, the record will fall. But people will still remember The Beast for holding it for 26+ years.

Some people should grow up, but of course that'd just be likely to start another forum war.

Paula, you have to excuse us. There's like, coaster dorks around... :)

Think this over, people. A family-oriented park building family-oriented rides going all out for an -est? A wooden -est? So close to Ohio at that? Are you serious?

It's not impossible, but somehow I don't think it likely.

I believe there's far more to the project than a coaster. A coaster will headline, no doubt. But there's more.

-'Playa

(who believes -esting, if any, will be done in Splashing Safari)

*** Edited 6/6/2005 3:17:16 AM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

I've got over 2000 rides on Beast and over 400 on Sonny So don't call me a non fan.

Mitches poll only takes comparisons of people who've ridden both coasters being compared. If you like Beast over Raven then that counts as one loss. If you like Raven over Racer. That counts as one win. I think it's extremely accurate of the 72 wood coasters I've ridden, Beast falls middle of the pack.

The records gonna be broken anyhow, Why not HW?

Chuck, who yes did not buy a SP for PKI this year due to loss of the flyers. This doesn't mean Im anti PKI.

What I think HW should do is something like this:

BALD EAGLE (in the 4th of July section)

Lift Height: 180'(150' above ground level at the highest point)

Largest drop: 165' at a 72* angle

Total airtime: 35 seconds

Length:5800'

Number of drops: 24

Trains: 2 PTC trains with 7 cars, 28 pass each with soft headrest (for added weight to the trains for a faster ride)

No of tunnels: 5 including an 800 foot underground tunnel

Elevation difference: 200'

Maximum speed: 68 mph

As you can tell in this example it is a massive woodie but it doesn't break the size or speed record at all. Think HW can handle a woodie like this? I hope so because I want to see them build a HUGE $10 million monster like this! They will still have $3.5 million to play with after that!

Sounds like fun...but it doesn't seem family oriented...Not to many families would like a ride that big.