Tea Parties, Glenn Beck protest Muslim Family Day at Six Flags Great America

Jeff, amazing that you comment about other people being angry. You get pretty frothy anytime anyone offers an opinion different from yours, no matter what the topic. .

Gato, please quote my comment where I said that corporations shouldn't have to pay taxes. Cropsey, likewise find the comment where I said I was against Muslim day at Six Flags, or anything Muslim. According to both of you, they're clearly there. But if you do believe every single entity that's incorporated (does that include non-profits too?) is evil, please offer a friendlier alternative for running the economy and providing jobs as well as more tax revenue.

That's your problem. One person makes a comment contrary to your opinion on something, and right away you run off and fill in the blanks assuming what that person's opinion is on every other topic. Are you next going to come up with some conclusion that I'm a member of the KKK or that I'm a neo-Nazi skinhead? Of course, just like your pundits and your leaders, repeat a lie long enough and often enough and you believe it, even with no proof or evidence at all.

Re: Al Gore. Didn't his family make their fortune in tobacco and zinc?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-03-18-goremine_n.htm
Healthy living right there. How many homes does he have? How large is his carbon footprint? Looks like the rest of him is taking up a lot more space lately too. One of you do-gooders should lecture him about obesity and the health care system. He might have trouble fitting into a few coasters himself.

@ Tekwardo
I am guessing you got those numbers from Wikipedia. and according to whoever wrote that you are correct that only 6 are identified as islamic states. However, that doesn't count all of the countries that have a Islam as their state religion... And how is being cautious about how a group of people conducts itself a bad thing. I have in no way stated any desire to attack or punish muslims here. All I have advocated is that when a muslim group makes a push for something that action should be meet with some extra skepticism.

Wow. Firstly, as I said, you're assuming that just because someone that is Muslim lives in a Muslim state that they must agree with everything the government does and that simply isn't true. That was the point I was trying to make. And to expand that further and say that every country where its the state religion means that everyone there obviously thinks the same way as those who run Islamic states is just, well, wow.

You're basing your opinions on a very few people's beliefs simply because they're Muslim.

What I am saying is with the current climate around the world it should be more than acceptable to be leery of their conduct. I can't understand why this is such a detestable thought.

So why aren't you leery of every white person or black person? Plenty of them commit terroristic acts too. And Christians? Why are you making broad negative generalizations about Muslims because of the things they do, but not white people or black people? There are atrocities that go on in Africa, Europe, and yes, even the US. What about Asians? So does that mean every person of any color should be generalized by the negative actions of a few?

One you claim is baseless.

Please prove that it isn't baseless.

Why don't you take a look at the human rights records of these countries.

As opposed to what? America? Where we enslaved Africans and killed them for trying to escape? Where we took over the land from the indigenous people and killed them simply because the didn't live the way we thought was acceptable? And what about killing people whom we thought were witches?

You get pretty frothy anytime anyone offers an opinion different from yours, no matter what the topic.

At the risk of sounding rude, and I'll be the first to admit Jeff and I have had disagreements a plenty, it seems that when politics are brought up, you seem to get very bent out of shape when people disagree with your views as well. I'm all for different beliefs, but in this thread (and even in the gay thread) people seem to not be able to tell the difference between strong conviction and prejudice. You want to disagree with Muslim beliefs? Want to disagree with homosexuality? Want to disagree with liberals or conservatives? That's fine. We have the right. But be informed about it. Have a strong conviction, but when you're uninformed and make broad generalizations, you're going to be called out as a fool.

You know what makes me angry? People who try to rationalize hate. When someone says something like:

wazsterling said:
What I am saying is with the current climate around the world it should be more than acceptable to be leery of their conduct.

...I hear, "Those black people may rob me, those gays are trying to recruit me, those Mexicans are here illegally and those Asians are good at math." Those are all just as ignorant. I have no tolerance for it at all.

wazsterling said: Just reread your post and see if you can see how degrading and belligerent.

wazsterling, might I suggest you try to be the change you want to see in the forum? :)

The truth is, you have every right to be leery of anyone you choose for any reason you choose. There's nothing really wrong with it as long as it doesn't translate to unwarranted action. But, in addition, to do so means you also have to admit that you are choosing to live your life in fear. And I for one don't think that's a very productive way to live.

When you think of all the reasons that exist for us to be leery of one another it's kind of overwhelming. At some point I know I have to hand all of that fear/suspicion over to my faith and release it. If I didn't, it would surely suffocate me.

You are exhausting. Muslims can be defined by their belief system because that is what being a follower of Islam is. It is a belief system. There is a book and everything. It is very different than being born black, white, asian... Again, I will say if you want to make judgements on christians based on your experience and your observations of them in the world today then go ahead. It is not offensive to me. Christians who call themselves followers of Christ are saying I have a belief system. Therefore the same principles hold true for them as they do for muslims. People who claim a religion, a political alignment, or a sociopolitical alignment are saying this is what I believe. I fail to see how lumping a group of people who claim a collective belief system is a baseless generalization. I love how you are comparing the current human rights situations of muslim countries with those in america that happened well over a century ago. On top of that you used the word we. I can't remember the last time i had a good old fashioned witch burning. That was sarcasm. If you are going to compare at least get it in the same century. Try segregation, or women having the right to vote, interment camps for the japanese, murdering unborn children, water boarding... My point was that looking at the imprisoning of people was not my sole basis on how I came to a conclusion. I could have used how stoning a woman for having an affair, or be accused of having an affair is an acceptable practice in a number of these countries. I will qualify this because if i don't i am sure the next post will somehow claim that i believe that all muslims think stoning women is ok. I don't think that all or most muslims believe in this. It is just something to consider. Tekwardo you might want to do your homework on me a little better. This is the first time I have ever posted anything on this sight. So i am sorry to let you know that i wasn't commenting on the gay thread. I am asking you to reread my posts. Just because I hold a different dosen't make me uninformed, dumb, ignorant, hatful... add whatever words you want. I have multiple friends who are muslim, I know multiple people who have moved hear from muslim countries and know people who have chosen to live in muslim countries for years at a time being missionaries. I have had plenty of experience with muslims and others who have even a considerable amount more experience than me. I am hardly uniformed.

Jeff - i am not sure why you continue to call me hateful. i know that you said that is what you hear. I can not try to make it any clearer. Being cautious is not hateful. Given the current state of high school boys I am certainly leery about what guys my daughter is dating. Under your broad definition, I hate all of those boys. That is ridiculous. And i am just curious who you are quoting? Again, for a guy who supposedly hates muslims I have strange amount of them coming over to my house for dinner. I have muslim friends. Not a work with three of them, not they serve me my coffee (which actually does happen), not they live in my neighborhood. I have friends who are muslim. I don't feel like i can say that enough. I have already mentioned it in a previous post. Yet you just gloss over that detail.

Carrie - thanks for your reasoned and appropriate comment. I do appreciate it. You're correct that I need to do a better job of conducting myself in the forum. I am usually very calm and respectful. As i reread my post I can certainly see where people could and should say that i was rude. I have a very hard time when people pick and choose which statements they are going to hear and then put words into my mouth that i clearly didn't say. I must do a better job of clarifying my statements graciously when others take what is said and either completely change it or only read into it what they want completely changing the comment. Again thanks for the reminder. Finally, I do not live if fear. Because I am vigilant does not make me afraid. I don't buckle up in my car because I am afraid. I do it because I am being cautious. Most times I don't need it, but when the time comes for it to do its job, i have done what is necessary for it to do its job. I can see where you might infer that my mindset may be one of fear. And just to make it clear, this topic does not consume my mind. I am generally a very laid back guy, sometimes to a fault. Thank you for your concern.

You are exhausting.

Back atcha, brother.

Muslims can be defined by their belief system because that is what being a follower of Islam is. It is a belief system. There is a book and everything. It is very different than being born black, white, asian... Christians who call themselves followers of Christ are saying I have a belief system. Therefore the same principles hold true for them as they do for muslims. People who claim a religion, a political alignment, or a sociopolitical alignment are saying this is what I believe. I fail to see how lumping a group of people who claim a collective belief system is a baseless generalization.

First, there are different denominations of the Muslim religion, just like there are in Christianity. Not everyone who professes to be a Christian should be generalized by looking at the worst cases. We're not all abortion clinic bombers, Fred Phelpses, etc. You're looking at the worst of a religion, which in truth translates to a small amount of people, and generalizing everyone by claiming they all must be the same because they're all Muslim. That simply isn't the case.

I love how you are comparing the current human rights situations of muslim countries with those in america that happened well over a century ago. On top of that you used the word we. I can't remember the last time i had a good old fashioned witch burning. That was sarcasm. If you are going to compare at least get it in the same century. Try segregation, or women having the right to vote, interment camps for the japanese, murdering unborn children, water boarding...

Okay, so lets discuss more recent topics, still isn't lending you any credibility, because you're admitting that even in this country recently we do things much like they do in Muslim States. If you want to argue for me, that's fine.

Tekwardo you might want to do your homework on me a little better. This is the first time I have ever posted anything on this sight. So i am sorry to let you know that i wasn't commenting on the gay thread. I am asking you to reread my posts.

And if you'll look at what I posted before I started talking about that, you'd realize that you never typed that, and I was responding to someone else...

Just because I hold a different dosen't make me uninformed, dumb, ignorant, hatful...

But if you're basing your feelings of over a billion people on the actions of a minority of them, and you're not uninformed or simply displaying ignorance about them, then the only thing I can see is that you are prejudging the majority based on the minority's actions. And that is sad.

I have multiple friends who are muslim, I know multiple people who have moved hear{sic} from muslim countries

And are you leery of them?

You can be completely informed and still be prejudiced, and if you're claiming you have made an informed decision based on what you know, and you're still leery of Muslims, then I can't think of anything else but to conclude that you have issues with them that probably aren't going away. I'm sorry that you're leery of over a billion people, but that's youre choice.

wazsterling said:
Muslims can be defined by their belief system because that is what being a follower of Islam is. It is a belief system. There is a book and everything.

OH. . . . MY. . . . .GOD!!! Really?

Stopped reading at this point.

wazsterling said:
Finally, I do not live if fear. Because I am vigilant does not make me afraid. I don't buckle up in my car because I am afraid. I do it because I am being cautious. Most times I don't need it, but when the time comes for it to do its job, i have done what is necessary for it to do its job. I can see where you might infer that my mindset may be one of fear. And just to make it clear, this topic does not consume my mind. I am generally a very laid back guy, sometimes to a fault. Thank you for your concern.

I'm following the gist of what you're saying. Where you lose me, though, is when you expand your caution to the masses. If a person named Frank robs me, then it makes perfect sense for me to be leery of Frank in the concern he may rob me again. But I would need to be very careful about associating characteristics X, Y, and Z of Frank and concluding that other people who share those characteristics may rob me, too.

To use your example, while it makes sense to wear a seat belt while seated in your car as a form of caution, it wouldn't make sense to wear one while seated in your living room watching TV just because the characteristics of the chairs have similarities.

So I think the main disconnect here is that association of what common characteristics exist between the 9/11 terrorists and other Muslims or followers of the Islam faith. If we can agree that the mere fact of being Muslim or the Islam belief system were not what led bad people to do bad things, then the need to be leery of Muslims in general falls to zero.

Terrorists will use any theory or justification they can find to carry out their evil missions. Their excuse for 9/11 was Islam. Next time it could be any other ridiculous excuse. But in my belief system, buying into their false excuse/smoke screen allows them to win. And I choose to never knowingly be a part of letting the terrorists win.

Their excuse for 9/11 was Islam.

And Tim McVeigh's excuse was anti-government sentiments. And a man who ran thru a clinic (which he mistakenly thought was an abortion clinic) in 2006, likely due to his religious beliefs.

So, waszsterling, are you leery of professed Christians? What about former US Soldiers unhappy with the government?

Seems you keep dodging that question. Why are you leery of Muslims because of the actions of an extreme few, but you're not leery of other groups who have an extreme few that commit similar acts of terrorism?

Meanwhile, here in this small hotbed of liberalism in the Deep South...(aka, Gainesville, FL) - we have Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center, a misnomer if ever there was one, planning Sept. 11 as "International Burn a Quran Day".

Really enlightened...*sarcasm off*. Phelps is far from the only self-appointed religious "Crusader"...

Also, there are a whole lot of countries that have similar human rights abuses that have nothing to do with their religion. (China, for one).

Maybe human rights abuses come from being in power and wanting to stay in power, not from any religious beliefs.

I like Carrie's articulation of it. At the bottom of all these acts (Chinese human rights, 9/11, McVeigh, not to mention the guy who flew his plane into an IRS building in Austin, Texas) are messed up people doing messed up things. Whether they dress it in language of "for Mother country, for jihad, or for restoration of America," it's still just an excuse, nothing more, nothing less.

And furthermore, you make it sound like everyone in Muslim countries chooses their religion like they choose their breakfast cereal. Not only is it much more complicated than that (sociologically and politically - especially in a religious state, Islam isn't just about believing what's in a book), I would bet that the vast majority of people in Islamic states don't even know they have a choice.

Maybe human rights abuses come from being in power and wanting to stay in power, not from any religious beliefs.

I knew you Asians were smarter than the rest of us ;).

Whether they dress it in language of "for Mother country, for jihad, or for restoration of America," it's still just an excuse.

Exactly. We make our own choices.

When a group of people have prominent people doing and saying extreme things of course you're going to start to associate that group with the extremists. People think the Tea Party people are racist because of a few racists. People think Republicans are idiots because of Palin. Even though most people fall in the middle the extremes always get the most attention because they do outlandish things.

One of the unfortunate affects of the terrorist attacks is that we are now tip toeing around Muslims. Take for example the censored episode of South Park because of the threats and the recent Fort Hood shooting where no one wanted to call it terrorism. In this aspect the terrorists have won.

Tekwardo said:

Muslims can be defined by their belief system because that is what being a follower of Islam is. It is a belief system. There is a book and everything. It is very different than being born black, white, asian... Christians who call themselves followers of Christ are saying I have a belief system. Therefore the same principles hold true for them as they do for muslims. People who claim a religion, a political alignment, or a sociopolitical alignment are saying this is what I believe. I fail to see how lumping a group of people who claim a collective belief system is a baseless generalization.

First, there are different denominations of the Muslim religion, just like there are in Christianity. Not everyone who professes to be a Christian should be generalized by looking at the worst cases. We're not all abortion clinic bombers, Fred Phelpses, etc. You're looking at the worst of a religion, which in truth translates to a small amount of people, and generalizing everyone by claiming they all must be the same because they're all Muslim. That simply isn't the case.

Yeah, you'd think that is the case, wouldn't you? I have (actually, now had) a friend who is Muslim. He professed to me that he was the equivalent to what some "Christians" would refer to as a C&E Christian (Christmas and Easter). He rarely if ever went to the temple, didn't really pray at the certain times during the day, and he barely observed Ramadan unless his wife leaned on him to do it (and if you know anything about Muslim culture, it is usually the opposite). Anyways, I used to think that there were moderate Muslims because of him and my friendship with him. He even welcomed the increased security in the airports and the extra profiling because he was Pakastani after 9-11.

Then I befriended him on Facebook. He posted David Duke videos almost every day about how Jews were ruining the world, blah, blah, blah. Him and his other "moderate" friends would profess about how much better the world will be when there is no more Isreal and how they are looking forward to it's destruction at Muslim hands.

But this dovetails into another point I want to make. There has been much hay being made about how racist the Tea Party is, and also other conservatives. I do not agree with Glenn Beck and his condemnation of a seemingly normal event at an amusement park. I do agree that there are some fringe elements in the Tea Party that ARE racist and do have racist tones in their message.

I also think that there are racist elements in every segment of society. Look at some of the black interest groups. Some of them have racist elements in them even though their organizations are not racist. Several democratic political figures have been shown to have racist feelings and some have even made the press, yet they were never punished like republican lawmakers that made the same gaffs.

What I see is a presidential administration and some of the leftist fringes of the media (think MSNBC, the anti-Fox if you will) that will call anyone who opposes the presidents agenda a racist. It is a way to demonize those who hold dissenting opinions and to put them on the defensive.

I think the average tea-partier is an average American that wants the spending in Washington to stop (and this is a problem that has been happening in both democratic and republican administrations since Kennedy or even further back!). They want a smaller government and they want people held accountable for the financial decisions that they make. Yes, there are fringe elements that are bad, but look at any group of people, even this one, and you will find that fringe.

BDesvignes said:
People think Republicans are idiots because of Palin.

Well, the majority of Republicans voted her through the primary and into the general election. I'm not suggesting ALL Republicans are to blame for that, but the majority sure is.

KTS saidI think the average tea-partier is an average American that wants the spending in Washington to stop (and this is a problem that has been happening in both democratic and republican administrations since Kennedy or even further back!). They want a smaller government and they want people held accountable for the financial decisions that they make. Yes, there are fringe elements that are bad, but look at any group of people, even this one, and you will find that fringe.

Government spending cant totally stop, We know this. I think you'd all agree that all dems don't think exactly the same as all Repubs don't either

Why did the deficit shrink under Clinton? Because they cut spending to all but the basics, Severely reduced a social program that was seriously abused. (Lifetime Welfare) Allowed a good economy to flurish.

Right now were spending basically twice what the govt takes in per year in taxes only (1.2 Trillion in) 2.4 Going out. You want the roads fixed? you stick a 2-3 cent sunset tax on every gallon of fuel (PAID FOR) yadayadayada.

Its broken, Its still broken. Even as a tea partier its hard to find the true consitutional and financially responsible candidates. Half these people like Newt are hypocrites beyond belief. Im findings a lot more connection and willingness to Do the right thing over the party line by FIRST TIME RUNNERS!
To many Rhinos and Dino's out there You can be pro labor and still live within your means.

Tekwardo said: I knew you Asians were smarter than the rest of us ;).

I bet Andy is also good at math and laundry (but a horrible driver) :)

(relax, folks...he'll know I'm kidding)

RatherGoodBear said:
Cropsey, likewise find the comment where I said I was against Muslim day at Six Flags, or anything Muslim.

You posted earlier in the thread that my positive experience with Muslims that I live around, work with and have befriended was not indicitive of the rest of the 1.5 billion group. Unless you're just putting up an argument out there just to argue you're insinuating that the rest of the group are bad news. The original topic is a protest about Muslim day at Six Flags. No one's putting words in your mouth, you're doing just fine on your own.

Don't forget that Clinton used social security money to make it look like he had a surplus.

@BDesvignes: Wrong. Thanks for playing.

djDaemon said:

BDesvignes said:
People think Republicans are idiots because of Palin.

Well, the majority of Republicans voted her through the primary and into the general election. I'm not suggesting ALL Republicans are to blame for that, but the majority sure is.

In all fairness to Republicans, it took awhile to discover what an idiot she really was (and wasn't chosen in the primaries). I don't think all Republicans are idiots, just the one woman from Alaska. I'm waiting for someone in the party to stand up and say, "Stop the madness already!" Not because I'm particularly aligned with what Republicans think, but because doing so might go a long way toward restoring balance to The Force.

The funny thing about referring to the "tea party" is that it's not a party, and it's barely a movement. It's more like angry and bitter anarchists composing a fringe element that make a lot of noise, but have no action points. They don't really say anything, which is perhaps why they think Palin is so cool. She doesn't either.