So I guess the whole B&M "forceless" thing was just as we thought.

I know it's probably hard for you all to believe I haven't weighed in on this yet....

Blame a lack of good internet access during SpringCon... ;)

I personally can't speak for Tatsu, but I have heard the same opinion elsewhere. Goliath definitely did things do to that I didn't think were possible for a B&M hyper.

And this is the first time we've seen a good "layout" on a Beemer-flyer.

Also always hard to say how a ride will operate under "normal circumstances" as opposed to how it runs during a media-day/event type deal...

Silver Bullet for me was a REALLY good invert...but I like Talon, Fire, and the other "soft" Beemer inverts, layout-wise...it's the one time I really DO *get* floater airtime...I :)

Hypers, not so much. Flyers, not so much. Me likey what I am hearing about the new ride at SFMM...hmmmm, when IS Coaster Solace again? ;)

edit: The *point* of this particular "rant"...hehe. Likely, parks started realizing that the kids today, they want something more powerful. ;)

Or, alternatively, maybe B&M finally started listening to whiny enthusiasts? :)

*** Edited 5/15/2006 10:48:58 PM UTC by rollergator***

I wouldn't lump Fire in with those other inverts. As far as I'm concerned, Fire is still the best looping coaster in the U.S., and frankly I think its because it kicks my booty every single time at bat.

The straight hill, down into that EVIL direction change into the wrap-around immelman, and then those OMG-WHATS-HAPPENING-TO-MY-FACE g's just before the straightaway into the vertical loop...

I still think that's pretty much the most kick-ass sequence on any B&M *I've* been on. Certainly nothing like that on Talon.

hmm this is a tough subject for me because my first invert was Alpie the year it opened when I was in third grade (I had to put socks in my shoes to gain an inch to ride) and I remember it was great but my personal favorite B&M invert is Top Gun at Carowinds. It is jsut so much fun I can't stop laughing when I am on it and I LOVE riding it over again. Montu was good the first few years it opened and it still is nice but it seems slower in the second block whish is sad cause I remember that last corkscrew was always super intense. For some reason I am not to fond of Raptor I don't like the layout to much. Dueling Dragons was fun and I love how that coaster photographs but for me Top Gun does it.

The Incredible Hulk Coaster was one of B&M's most intense coaster for me. The intensity and G-Forces were so insane that I could not ride more then 2 times in arrow. (I rode it about 10 times in a week.)

I like how Islands of Adventure has 2 incredible B&M's both Incredible Hulk and Dueling Dragons. Islands of Adventure is the best!!!

<= Been on all the U.S. B&M inverts but Patriot and Great White

The thing that I love about Talon is the ride has a great mix of hang-time, airtime and intensity and with those low to the ground turns later on, it really feels like flying.

Silver Bullet really didn't do anything for me except for the overbank which was pretty sweet. I wish it had a little more variety, though. (Single train operation didn't help either).

And Matt, Texas Giant does not rock unless you mean it feels like it was tracked with gravel. :-P

^ That's GOOD gravel, then... :)

I must meet this Talon you speek of.

Gator gets it, Andy. Why don't you? ;)

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matt. said:
As far as I'm concerned B&M has built 3 really really mediocre inverted coasters for Cedar Fair in the past few years, I think more than anything those 3 coasters alone plus the first round of flyers have contributed to the whole forceless B&M argument.

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Hmm...I'm not so sure I agree.

In my opinion, B&M's three (or four) family hypercoasters are most responsible for the forceless comments. But in reality, nearly everything the company has built post-1998 has been of the forceless breed. Prime examples that have shaped my opinion in this direction include SheiKra, S:UF, Medusa, BDK, Kraken, Talon, and the aforementioned hypercoasters (Raging Bull, Nitro, and Apollo's Chariot). That's not to say these are all bad rides. I really love Kraken and Talon for other reasons. But something did seem to happen after 1998 that shifted the company's newer rides away from being forceful.

-Nate

Is there any reliable source to the rumor that B&M will not go over 299 feet tall? I have heard rumors of such but not from the horse's mouth. If a park has the space, money and zoning I'd like to see somthing bigger than Steel Dragon get built (in the USA of course)! Of course I'm talking about a speed coaster with strong airtime not a looping kind!

I always wondered about the rumor concerning Cedar Point approaching B&M about building Millennium Force.

I think the term "Family Hypercoaster" is odd(but I understand what you're saying). In my experience, people either ride coasters or they don't. At CP my Mom rides CCMR and that's it. Everyone else in the family rides every coaster in the park. Isn't the height alone going to scare away these families? Or are they all getting their picture taken with Bugs Bunny? ;)

Family hypercoaster is the paradox among paradoxes.

So its not just me? "Hey wife, I know you don't like coasters but this 200 feet tall one is actually quite forceless"... ;) *** Edited 5/16/2006 8:55:43 AM UTC by macho nachos***

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coasterdude318 said:
In my opinion, B&M's three (or four) family hypercoasters are most responsible for the forceless comments.

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I didn't include the hyper's and I'll tell you why: as far as I can tell, you get a large majority that really really likes these rides, and then a *very* vocal minority. If you only had the comments on this board to go by, you'd think Nitro was the most dull coaster in the world. Then again, its still ranked #6 according to Mitch's poll, with Apollo at #14. Do all of these people really think these rides are all that forceless? I dunno, just an idea.

I agree with the floorless thing, though. Gimme Kumba any day.

I don't get the whole "B&Ms are forceless" thing. I think that Nitro, Apollo's Chariot, Kraken, Dueling Dragons, Incredible Hulk and Talon all have some pretty decent forces, and they were all built in recent years. Nitro has great floater air- how is that a lack of forces? Kraken, DD and Hulk all have moments where my OTSR is pushed a click or two tighter because of positive Gs.

Maybe newer B&Ms lack the SUSTAINED forces of rides like Batman, Montu and Kumba, but to say they are forceless is a load of b.s. Not to mention completely inaccurate- anything moving at 50, 60 or 70 MPH cannot be without strong forces, as that would obviously defy the laws of physics.

That's not true at all. A 100mph coaster can have far less forces than a 20mph coaster. It all depends on the design, track banking, rounding of hills, etc. Higher speed does not mean higher forces.

I think aside from a few moments (RB's first drop, Nitro's helix), those B&M hypercoasters are pretty "forceless." That doesn't mean they're not enjoyable rides. In fact, I enjoy both of them. Heck, a lot of the "forceless" rides included in my last post were rides I rank quite highly. But I don't think anyone would try to argue that the forces on those rides come anywhere near those on the Intamin hypercoasters, for instance.

And come on, the term "family hypercoaster" is obviously a slang term not meant to be taken literally or used as a valid/accurate term.

-Nate

What Nate said. Space Mountain at DL is a great example of low speed, yet high force.

Force = mass x acceleration
acceleration = change in velocity over time
velocity = speed in a given direction
Note 1: If the speed is constant, but the mass is changing direction, it is accelerating.
Note 2: If the speed is constant and the mass is moving in a straight line, there is no acceleration
Note 3: In case it isn't clear, if there is no acceleration, there is NO force.

Even if the mass is moving slowly in terms of miles per hour, but its direction is changing abruptly (a tight turn like on a wild mouse), the mass is accelerating. Where as if the mass goes around a wider turn, the acceleration is less.

Less acceleration = less force. *** Edited 5/16/2006 3:03:15 PM UTC by Acoustic Viscosity***

True, it takes more than speed to create forces but I don't agree with the statement that some newer B&Ms feature a complete lack of forces. The airtime on Nitro is not like the airtime on Phantom's Revenge but there is a presence of forces if I'm constantly being lifted from my seat- and that happens a lot on Nitro. To say that a coaster like Nitro features no forces is like saying a drizzle contains no precipitation because it's not a full-blown downpour.

I would agree that, on the average, newer B&M coasters contain FEWER MOMENTS OF EXTREME FORCES compared to older B&M coasters, but it's completely wrong to say that newer B&Ms are FORCELESS.

They aren't forceless, but rather they Force less. ;)

And once again, "forceless" is a slang term, though it is pretty much generally accepted. Since when did everyone start taking these terms literally? "Forceless" is used all the time, and it's obviously not referring to a ride with a complete lack of forces...

-Nate
*** Edited 5/16/2006 2:54:11 PM UTC by coasterdude318***

I don't know when EVERYONE started taking the term literally but I know I always have because it's inaccurate. It suggests that B&M rides creates no forces aside from basic motion and that's completely untrue. Stuff like that bothers me just like Cedar Point's "we are the best" advertising slant and talk of coaster preservation ALWAYS being a bad business idea.