So I guess the whole B&M "forceless" thing was just as we thought.

After rider SFOG's Goliath a few weeks ago, and now Tatsu this past week, all the talk of modern B&M coasters being designed with weaker forces for certain parks was true. We all know that B&M are masters of designing exactly what each park wants down to the smallest detail, and there is no further proof of that than these two coasters. On Goliath's return run of negative g's, I thought I was on the wrong coaster. It's an amazing display of powerful, almost ejector air. Where did that come from?

And Tatsu is very "old school" B&M (Raptor, Top Gun), smooth, but with forces so strong in places it left me quite stunned after my first ride. Many people couldn't ride more than 3 times without taking a break. Is this the same B&M that last year put me to sleep with Silver Bullet and Hydra:The Revenge?

Apparently. ;)

I rode it for the first time yesterday (Sat. 13th) and was floored at at the intensity of the pretzel loop, especially sitting in the back row. My observation is that the ride station is set-up brilliantly, it's finally the first time I've seen them design a station to use the Flash Pass system well. However, the design does handicap non-FP people by limiting them to the left side of the station, and no access to the last two rows. So if you want to sit in the back, you have to use a Flash Pass. I bet that will change once on slower days and once the rush slows down.

The pretzel loop in the back row is apparently killer on all of them. I was in the second to last row on SFGAm's Superman and it was to much. Not comfortable at all.

I think the notion that the parks get exactly what they ask for is right on. Most of my favorite rides are still B&M's.

How many B&M's does SFMM have anyway, 6?

SFMM, SFOG, SFGAm. and SFGAdv. all have 4 B&M coasters each (the most at any single park).

^And those will be the last they get for a good long while.

I for one and glad for the NEW/old breed

Seriously, Id rather be floored (OWNED) by a coaster than be able to sit in it all day and fall asleep.

So what if it's too much to ride more than 3-4 times and then a break, Your comming off with a WOW factor and want to ride it again, travel back to ride it again ect.

BTW, TGG builds exactly what the customer wants also.

Chuck

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Charles Nungester said:

Seriously, Id rather be floored (OWNED) by a coaster than be able to sit in it all day and fall asleep.

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Agreed, which is why I like most of the looping coasters B&M has made in the past, say...7 years or so, but don't love any of them. Except for the hyper coasters, B&M is all about '94 to '99 for me. Although I'd love to think with these new rides that could change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a few years ago wasn't there an interview with either Walter or Claude in which he made a reference to the fact that they sometimes wish they could build more intense rides, but they build exactly what the customer wants?

I couldn't point you to the exact quote, but yes, that's been said quite a few times, Peabody.

As far as I'm concerned B&M has built 3 really really mediocre inverted coasters for Cedar Fair in the past few years, I think more than anything those 3 coasters alone plus the first round of flyers have contributed to the whole forceless B&M argument.

Then again, you can't blame B&M for being relatively conservative with their first flyer layouts, and I'm sure if Cedar Fair had requested something more along the lines of Raptor when building Talon, Silver Bullet, and Patriot, B&M would have been more than happy to deliver. *** Edited 5/14/2006 10:49:25 PM UTC by matt.***

I just hope neither coaster becomes the victim of trims. These are beautifully built coasters that sit near or at the top of their genre. And though they both have moments of intensity, they don't deserve the fate of some of the past B&Ms that were toned down for whatever reason. Montu and Raging Bull come immediately to mind. *** Edited 5/15/2006 4:39:44 AM UTC by DWeaver***

Maybe it's just me, but I thought Silver Bullet had a good deal of force in the helix.

It does...that spot really surprised me.

Ive never heard anoyone relate Talon to mediocre, I love the ride, its great fun, but to each his own.

On Mitch's steel coaster poll Talon ranks #46 in the world. Not especially shabby or anything but certainly not in the top tier of B&M inverted coasters.

Then again I just noticed Silver Bullet at #120. Ouch.

I'm a pretty big fan of Talon, myself but I also don't get TG, so...

As for being conservative with the first flyer layout - air is pretty forceless as well, right?

I would think that they'd want to be conservative, but B:TR is really intense and that was the first Invert. I'd think that conservative would mean make it really fast so it doesn't valley...

Texas Giant rocks, Andy. ;)

Silver Bullet is my favorite invert out of the US collection I've ridden, but I'm missing Montu, Alpie, Talon and Dueling Dragons, plus a couple of BTR's. I think SB is just intense enough and has a nice "fly around the park" layout. Invert drops don't really do much for me anyway, so I actually like the long, gentle slope off of the lifthill. It's a nice "flying" moment. The overbank turn rocks, having the heartline roll AFTER the cobra roll catches me off guard every time, and the swooping zig-zag between the two corcscrews is really fun--reminds me of a good swing on an Arrow suspended. Plus the location of the ride really enhances it.

I'm giving Patriot another shot this weekend at the event (yes, I'm going Swoosh), but if opening day's rides are any indication of Talon, I wouldn't care much for Talon. Recess said the two are very similar, so I don't get what all the hype is about.

I second Jeff's comment. After thinking about my favorite steel coasters, almost all of them are B&Ms (Nitro, Dueling Dragons, Kumba, Kraken, etc.). The others are Phantom's Revenge and SFOG's Mindbender- A Morgan/Arrow mix and an Anton.

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ApolloAndy said:
but B:TR is really intense and that was the first Invert.

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I hear yah. I still think it is remarkable that that design was the first inverted ever, and it is still just so. damn. good. even today. Truly amazing, and an awsome example of the brilliance of B&M.

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Jeff said:
The pretzel loop in the back row is apparently killer on all of them. I was in the second to last row on SFGAm's Superman and it was to much. Not comfortable at all.

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This is a pretty dead-on assessment. The front row on the B&M flyers is the place to be view-wise, but in terms of intensity of forces, there's nothing quite like the back. I've taken to only riding Superman: Ultimate Flight at SFGAdv in the back for just that reason -- the positive Gs as you start downwards into the pretzel loop are among the most intense forces you can experience on any coaster around, bar none. The straight-ahead loop of the Vekoma flyers (like SFA'S Batwing) just doesn't even compare.